While We're on the Subject
Jul. 5th, 2004 01:14 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
bookofmirrorsThis was on ![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
tbrents' journal a while back, and I think it illustrates polyamory and its challenges very well.
Once upon a time, a long time ago there lived two very happy people called Tim
and Maggi with their two children, John and Lucy.
To understand how
happy they were you have to understand how things were in those days. You see,
in those happy days everyone was given, at birth, a small soft Fuzzy Bag.
Anytime a person reached into this bag he was able to pull out a Warm Fuzzy.
Warm Fuzzies were very much in demand because whenever somebody was
given a Warm Fuzzy it made him feel warm and fuzzy all over. People who didn't
get Warm Fuzzies regularly were in danger of developing a sickness in their
backs which caused them to shrivel up and die.
In those days it was very
easy to get Warm Fuzzies. Anytime that somebody felt like it, he might walk up
to you and say, "I'd like to have a Warm Fuzzy." You would then reach into your
bag and pull out a Fuzzy the size of a little girl's hand.
As soon as
the Fuzzy saw the light of day it would smile and blossom into a large shaggy
Warm Fuzzy. You then would lay it on the person's shoulder or head or lap and it
would snuggle up and melt right against their skin and make them feel good all
over.
People were always asking each other for Warm Fuzzies, and since
they were always given freely, getting enough of them was never a problem.
There were always plenty to go around, and as a consequence everyone was
happy and felt warm and fuzzy most of the time.
One day a bad witch
became angry because everyone was so happy and no one was buying potions and
salves.
The witch was very clever and devised a very wicked plan.
One beautiful morning the witch crept up to Tim while Maggi was playing
with their daughter and whispered in his ear, "See here, Tim, look at all the
Fuzzies that Maggi is giving to Lucy. You know, if she keeps it up, eventually
she is going to run out and then there won't be any left for you."
Tim
was astonished. He turned to the witch and said, "Do you mean to tell me that
there isn't a Warm Fuzzy in our bag every time we reach into it?" And the witch
said, "No, absolutely not, and once you run out, that's it. You don't have any
more." With this, the witch flew away, laughing and cackling.
Tim took
this to heart and began to notice every time Maggi gave up a Warm Fuzzy to
somebody else. Eventually he got very worried and upset because he liked Maggi's
Warm Fuzzies very much and did not want to give them up. He certainly did not
think it was right for Maggi to be spending all her Warm Fuzzies on the children
and on other people.
He began to complain every time he saw Maggi giving
a Warm Fuzzy to somebody else, and because Maggi liked him very much, she
stopped giving Warm Fuzzies to other people as often and reserved them for him.
The children watched this and soon began to get the idea that it was
wrong to give up Warm Fuzzies any time you were asked or felt like it.
They too became very careful. They would watch their parents closely,
and whenever they felt that one of their parents was giving too many Fuzzies to
others, they also began to object. They began to feel worried whenever they gave
away too many Warm Fuzzies.
Even though they found a Warm Fuzzy every
time they reached into their bag, they reached in less and less and became more
and more stingy. Soon people began to notice the lack of Warm Fuzzies, and they
began to feel less warm and less fuzzy. They began to shrivel up, and,
occasionally, people would die from lack of Warm Fuzzies.
More and more
people went to the witch to buy potions and salves even though they didn't seem
to work.
Well, the situation was getting very serious indeed. The bad
witch didn't really want the people to die (since dead people couldn't buy
salves and potions) so a new plan was devised.
Everyone was given a bag
that was very similar to the Fuzzy Bag except that this one was cold while the
Fuzzy Bag was warm. Inside of the witch's bag were Cold Pricklies. These Cold
Pricklies did not make people feel warm and fuzzy, but made them feel cold and
prickly instead.
But they did prevent people's back's from shriveling
up. So, from then on, every time somebody said, "I want a Warm Fuzzy," people
who were worried about depleting their supply would say, "I can't give you a
Warm Fuzzy, but would you like a Cold Prickly?"
Sometimes, two people
would walk up to each other, thinking they could get a Warm Fuzzy, but one or
the other of them would change his mind and they would wind up giving each other
Cold Pricklies. So while very few people were dying, a lot of people were still
unhappy and feeling very Cold and Prickly.
The situation got very
complicated. Warm Fuzzies, which used to be thought of as free as air, became
extremely valuable. This caused people to do all sorts of things in order to
obtain them.
Before the witch had appeared, people used to gather in
groups of three or four or five, never caring too much who was giving Warm
Fuzzies to whom. After the coming of the witch, people began to pair off to
reserve all their Warm Fuzzies for each other exclusively. People who forgot
themselves and gave a Fuzzy to someone else would feel guilty because they knew
that their partner would probably resent the loss. People who could not find a
generous partner had to buy their Fuzzies and they worked long hours to earn the
money.
Another thing which happened was that some people would take Cold
Pricklies.....which were limitless and freely available..... coat them white and
fluffy, and pass them on as Warm Fuzzies.
These counterfeit Warm Fuzzies
were really Plastic Fuzzies, and they caused additional difficulties. For
instance, two people would get together and freely exchange Plastic Fuzzies,
which presumably should have made them feel good, but they came away feeling bad
instead. Since they thought they had been exchanging Warm Fuzzies, people grew
very confused about this, never realizing that their cold, prickly feelings were
really the result of the fact that they had been given a lot of Plastic Fuzzies.
So the situation was very, very dismal, and it all started because of
the coming of the witch who made people believe that some day, when least
expected, they might reach into their Warm Fuzzy Bag and find no more.
Not long ago, a lovely, strong woman with big hips and a happy smile
came to this unhappy land. She seemed not to have heard about the witch and was
not worried about running out of Warm Fuzzies. She gave them out freely, even
when not asked. People called her the Hip Woman and some disapproved of her
because she was giving the children the idea that they should not worry about
running out of Warm Fuzzies.
The children liked her very much because
they felt good around her. They, too, began to give out Warm Fuzzies whenever
they felt like it.
The grownups became concerned and decided to pass a
law to protect the children from using up their supplies of Warm Fuzzies. The
law made it a criminal offense to give out Warm Fuzzies in a reckless manner,
without a license.
Many children, however, seemed not to know or care,
and in spite of the law they continued to give each other Warm Fuzzies whenever
they felt like it and always when asked.
Because there were many many
children...almost as many as grownups...it began to look as if maybe the
children would have their way.
As of now it is hard to say what will
happen. Will the forces of law and order stop the children? Are the grownups
going to join with the Hip Woman and the children in taking a chance that there
will always be as many Warm Fuzzies as needed?
Will Tim and Maggi,
recalling the days when they were so happy and when Warm Fuzzies were unlimited,
begin to give away Warm Fuzzies freely again?
The struggle spread all
over the land and is probably going on right where you live. If you want to, and
I hope you do, you can join by freely giving and asking for Warm Fuzzies and by
being as loving and healthy as you can.
EDIT 06/23/2009: In the comment thread below, I make two errors. One is by associating Jesus with the Essenes. Data since then has shown that it's very unlikely that he was associated with the Essenes (although there is evidence that there was some sort of connection, most likely that they had heard and incorporated some of his teachings). The other is in referring to fascism. I have a much better understanding of that term now, and it was used very incorrectly in this instance. My apologies for both mistakes. --K'La
tbrents' journal a while back, and I think it illustrates polyamory and its challenges very well.Once upon a time, a long time ago there lived two very happy people called Tim
and Maggi with their two children, John and Lucy.
To understand how
happy they were you have to understand how things were in those days. You see,
in those happy days everyone was given, at birth, a small soft Fuzzy Bag.
Anytime a person reached into this bag he was able to pull out a Warm Fuzzy.
Warm Fuzzies were very much in demand because whenever somebody was
given a Warm Fuzzy it made him feel warm and fuzzy all over. People who didn't
get Warm Fuzzies regularly were in danger of developing a sickness in their
backs which caused them to shrivel up and die.
In those days it was very
easy to get Warm Fuzzies. Anytime that somebody felt like it, he might walk up
to you and say, "I'd like to have a Warm Fuzzy." You would then reach into your
bag and pull out a Fuzzy the size of a little girl's hand.
As soon as
the Fuzzy saw the light of day it would smile and blossom into a large shaggy
Warm Fuzzy. You then would lay it on the person's shoulder or head or lap and it
would snuggle up and melt right against their skin and make them feel good all
over.
People were always asking each other for Warm Fuzzies, and since
they were always given freely, getting enough of them was never a problem.
There were always plenty to go around, and as a consequence everyone was
happy and felt warm and fuzzy most of the time.
One day a bad witch
became angry because everyone was so happy and no one was buying potions and
salves.
The witch was very clever and devised a very wicked plan.
One beautiful morning the witch crept up to Tim while Maggi was playing
with their daughter and whispered in his ear, "See here, Tim, look at all the
Fuzzies that Maggi is giving to Lucy. You know, if she keeps it up, eventually
she is going to run out and then there won't be any left for you."
Tim
was astonished. He turned to the witch and said, "Do you mean to tell me that
there isn't a Warm Fuzzy in our bag every time we reach into it?" And the witch
said, "No, absolutely not, and once you run out, that's it. You don't have any
more." With this, the witch flew away, laughing and cackling.
Tim took
this to heart and began to notice every time Maggi gave up a Warm Fuzzy to
somebody else. Eventually he got very worried and upset because he liked Maggi's
Warm Fuzzies very much and did not want to give them up. He certainly did not
think it was right for Maggi to be spending all her Warm Fuzzies on the children
and on other people.
He began to complain every time he saw Maggi giving
a Warm Fuzzy to somebody else, and because Maggi liked him very much, she
stopped giving Warm Fuzzies to other people as often and reserved them for him.
The children watched this and soon began to get the idea that it was
wrong to give up Warm Fuzzies any time you were asked or felt like it.
They too became very careful. They would watch their parents closely,
and whenever they felt that one of their parents was giving too many Fuzzies to
others, they also began to object. They began to feel worried whenever they gave
away too many Warm Fuzzies.
Even though they found a Warm Fuzzy every
time they reached into their bag, they reached in less and less and became more
and more stingy. Soon people began to notice the lack of Warm Fuzzies, and they
began to feel less warm and less fuzzy. They began to shrivel up, and,
occasionally, people would die from lack of Warm Fuzzies.
More and more
people went to the witch to buy potions and salves even though they didn't seem
to work.
Well, the situation was getting very serious indeed. The bad
witch didn't really want the people to die (since dead people couldn't buy
salves and potions) so a new plan was devised.
Everyone was given a bag
that was very similar to the Fuzzy Bag except that this one was cold while the
Fuzzy Bag was warm. Inside of the witch's bag were Cold Pricklies. These Cold
Pricklies did not make people feel warm and fuzzy, but made them feel cold and
prickly instead.
But they did prevent people's back's from shriveling
up. So, from then on, every time somebody said, "I want a Warm Fuzzy," people
who were worried about depleting their supply would say, "I can't give you a
Warm Fuzzy, but would you like a Cold Prickly?"
Sometimes, two people
would walk up to each other, thinking they could get a Warm Fuzzy, but one or
the other of them would change his mind and they would wind up giving each other
Cold Pricklies. So while very few people were dying, a lot of people were still
unhappy and feeling very Cold and Prickly.
The situation got very
complicated. Warm Fuzzies, which used to be thought of as free as air, became
extremely valuable. This caused people to do all sorts of things in order to
obtain them.
Before the witch had appeared, people used to gather in
groups of three or four or five, never caring too much who was giving Warm
Fuzzies to whom. After the coming of the witch, people began to pair off to
reserve all their Warm Fuzzies for each other exclusively. People who forgot
themselves and gave a Fuzzy to someone else would feel guilty because they knew
that their partner would probably resent the loss. People who could not find a
generous partner had to buy their Fuzzies and they worked long hours to earn the
money.
Another thing which happened was that some people would take Cold
Pricklies.....which were limitless and freely available..... coat them white and
fluffy, and pass them on as Warm Fuzzies.
These counterfeit Warm Fuzzies
were really Plastic Fuzzies, and they caused additional difficulties. For
instance, two people would get together and freely exchange Plastic Fuzzies,
which presumably should have made them feel good, but they came away feeling bad
instead. Since they thought they had been exchanging Warm Fuzzies, people grew
very confused about this, never realizing that their cold, prickly feelings were
really the result of the fact that they had been given a lot of Plastic Fuzzies.
So the situation was very, very dismal, and it all started because of
the coming of the witch who made people believe that some day, when least
expected, they might reach into their Warm Fuzzy Bag and find no more.
Not long ago, a lovely, strong woman with big hips and a happy smile
came to this unhappy land. She seemed not to have heard about the witch and was
not worried about running out of Warm Fuzzies. She gave them out freely, even
when not asked. People called her the Hip Woman and some disapproved of her
because she was giving the children the idea that they should not worry about
running out of Warm Fuzzies.
The children liked her very much because
they felt good around her. They, too, began to give out Warm Fuzzies whenever
they felt like it.
The grownups became concerned and decided to pass a
law to protect the children from using up their supplies of Warm Fuzzies. The
law made it a criminal offense to give out Warm Fuzzies in a reckless manner,
without a license.
Many children, however, seemed not to know or care,
and in spite of the law they continued to give each other Warm Fuzzies whenever
they felt like it and always when asked.
Because there were many many
children...almost as many as grownups...it began to look as if maybe the
children would have their way.
As of now it is hard to say what will
happen. Will the forces of law and order stop the children? Are the grownups
going to join with the Hip Woman and the children in taking a chance that there
will always be as many Warm Fuzzies as needed?
Will Tim and Maggi,
recalling the days when they were so happy and when Warm Fuzzies were unlimited,
begin to give away Warm Fuzzies freely again?
The struggle spread all
over the land and is probably going on right where you live. If you want to, and
I hope you do, you can join by freely giving and asking for Warm Fuzzies and by
being as loving and healthy as you can.
EDIT 06/23/2009: In the comment thread below, I make two errors. One is by associating Jesus with the Essenes. Data since then has shown that it's very unlikely that he was associated with the Essenes (although there is evidence that there was some sort of connection, most likely that they had heard and incorporated some of his teachings). The other is in referring to fascism. I have a much better understanding of that term now, and it was used very incorrectly in this instance. My apologies for both mistakes. --K'La
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
no subject
Date: 2004-07-05 11:00 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-07-05 11:06 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-07-05 11:27 am (UTC)Yes I do have a preferred source for my warm fuzzies, but my friends have always been an excellent source of them as well, a most excellent source at that!
It would be a great world if everyone tried to be as great as our dogs think we are.
Ms. K'la la, I'm going to need a physical address for you and the handsome hubby so I can send y'all a wedding invite.
no subject
Date: 2004-07-05 12:30 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-07-05 01:11 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-07-05 08:54 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-07-05 10:11 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-07-09 01:21 am (UTC)Personally, I never saw the witch in the story as god's law, or the Christian god (Jehovah, if you will, although that's actually fairly inaccurate.) Keep in mind that a story with the witch as the bad guy is potentially inflammatory to someone who is a witch. I overlooked that, because it was irrelevant to the point on the story, just as the names of the characters were. At any rate, I saw the witch as a personification of fear and greed. The witch was greedy, wanting the money for her salves, so she sowed fear in order to get it. Can there be parallels drawn to the Christian god? Perhaps... certainly the first commandment is a greedy one, and the fear of hell is also sown to enforce it. I'd say, moreso, though, that more parallels can be drawn between this witch and the church (based on Pauline Roman Catholic thought, as all strictly Christian churches that I'm aware of are). At any rate, I hadn't made that connection until you pointed it out. I find that rather ironic.
I'm interested that you say that there needs to be a balance. This is contrary to any Christian teaching I've ever heard. You may have to explain this to me a little better, since I'm having trouble reconciling this with my understandings of Christian theology.
I certainly understand having sex with people to make them like you. I've done that in the past, too. It's an easy way to make "friends", and it does leave you feeling empty inside if the friendship is hollow, and based solely on the physical. That's not what I'm talking about here, though. I'm working, in my life, specifically on seeking emotional attachment, which may end in sex, or may not. Making this connection is difficult for me. The fact that it's challenging, and brings up fear in me, is my clue that it's a major issue for me, and one that I need to resolve. Could I go out there and just fuck a lot of people in that same hollow way I've done in the past? Absolutely. It would be pathetically easy, and maybe it would even sate my general state of lust. But I doubt that. It's the connection I seek, the connection I need to learn, the fear of connection what I need to overcome. How silly of me it would be to stop short if my heart wanted to take the connection to a physical level. How selfish of me to deny it to my husband if his heart felt connected to another. Our moral standpoints are simply different on this. You feel it's wrong to do this, for EVERYONE. I feel FOR ME that it's wrong NOT to. Other people have different needs, different challenges, different experiences. You certainly know from previous posts I've made that I don't endorse any type of open relationship that I think is unhealthy. I'd be happy to debate the healthiness of my actions, and be happy to listen and re-evaluate. But I just don't believe in the morality that forbids it.
Continued
Date: 2004-07-05 10:12 pm (UTC)Michelle
Re: Continued
Date: 2004-07-06 11:24 am (UTC)I have a challenge for you and for your friends. Will you live a life like a Christian for two or three weeks.
No.
I chose my path. I chose my life. I looked at the available options out there and Christianity was one of the first ones I considered. How could I not, since it is so pervasive in American culture? I attended church (a "good" church, heck, several of them come to think of it). I read the Bible. Twice. I joined Bible study groups. I played flute in the church choir. I "lived the life" of a Christian. It didn't work, it didn't fit. I found no joy, no peace, no salvation.
I found another path. I found joy, I found peace, I found my own salvation. It took years of work, trials, and revelations. To assume that I did this in an unexamined way smacks of ideological hubris.
Instead, I find that I think of Christianity like I do coffee: coffee obviously tastes good to a lot of people in the world - there is a Starbucks on every corner. But for me, I prefer tea.
Don't know why I'm bothering with this comment. I know it is falling on deafened ears. I guess it just irked me, the idea that someone could assume that listening to a radio station for a few weeks would alter the decisions and conclusions I've made.
Re: Continued
Date: 2004-07-09 01:36 am (UTC)I've already met your challenge, and, like Jesus in the wilderness, I overcame that temptation. I stepped away from the easy way out, a deity who would magically wash away all my alleged sins, and relieve me of all responsibility for my actions. A cloven-hooved scapegoat that I could blame for all my faults. My life is my own. I am God, Goddess, Perfection in all my Faults.
What would it be like for you to accept your own challenge, reversed? To step away from the idea that you aren't worthy to enter the Kingdom of Heaven without a fickle god's salvation, which he could repeal at any moment? How would it be for you to renounce guilt and the concept of sin, and to approach the things you do with joy? How would it be for you to no longer live in fear of eternal damnation, to let go of the idea of sin and hell? And who says you can't? The Bible? Preachers? Why is the Bible more authoritative than the Torah, the Koran, the teachings of Confucious or Anton le Vay? Why are preachers wiser than the Dalai Lama, Buddha,
I hear so much fear in your posts. It pains me to see people living in that kind of fear. You desire my salvation. I say I have no need to be saved.
"To be forgiven, we must first believe in sin."
And I don't.
Re: Continued
Date: 2004-07-09 02:41 pm (UTC)Re: Continued
Date: 2004-07-09 04:17 pm (UTC)Again, however, I fail to see how the Bible/Christianity is all about balance. If that were the case, then the two sides of the coin should have equal weight. God equals Satan. Good equals Evil. Not to say that they're the same thing, but balance would imply that each of them should have about 50% of the world. This is certainly not the belief of any Christian I've ever heard of, nor of the Bible. The God of the Bible wants all to follow him, and all to turn away from Satan, and certainly the Church preaches this even moreso. This is not balance. This is not too far from fascism.
Yes, confirmation is "foreign" to the extent that it's not mentioned in the Bible. The Bible contradicts itself a hundred times over, however, and it's been my experience that oftentimes, Christians pick whichever of the contradictory information suits their purposes at the time. I've tried different denominations, of both Christianity and Paganism. Where I'm at now speaks to my heart. You say yourself that "We are given a choice and that's the way it should be". I wholeheartedly agree with you here. This applies to religion/spirituality, abortion issues, and how people choose to live their lives. I also agree that being sprinkled with water means nothing. I haven't let that stop me from making my own choices.
I have read with an open heart and an open mind. I'm not afraid of Christianity. It just doesn't suit me. Christians, for the most part, however, seem terrified by paganism. This is a shame, because there is much we could learn from each other.
Re: Continued
Date: 2004-07-09 06:26 pm (UTC)Peace and Joy
1Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we[1] have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we[2] rejoice in the hope of the glory of God. 3Not only so, but we[3] also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; 4perseverance, character; and character, hope. 5And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us.
6You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 7Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. 8But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
9Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him! 10For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! 11Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.
Death Through Adam, Life Through Christ
12Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned-- 13for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 14Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.
15But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man's sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.
18Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. 19For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
20The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Re: Continued
Date: 2004-07-09 06:31 pm (UTC)Dead to Sin, Alive in Christ
1What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
5If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection. 6For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with,[1] that we should no longer be slaves to sin-- 7because anyone who has died has been freed from sin.
8Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.
11In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness. 14For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.
Slaves to Righteousness
15What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! 16Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey--whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were entrusted. 18You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.
19I put this in human terms because you are weak in your natural selves. Just as you used to offer the parts of your body in slavery to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer them in slavery to righteousness leading to holiness. 20When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. 21What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! 22But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. 23For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in[2] Christ Jesus our Lord.
Re: Continued
Date: 2004-07-09 06:32 pm (UTC)An Illustration From Marriage
1Do you not know, brothers--for I am speaking to men who know the law--that the law has authority over a man only as long as he lives? 2For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law of marriage. 3So then, if she marries another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not an adulteress, even though she marries another man.
4So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God. 5For when we were controlled by the sinful nature,[1] the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death. 6But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.
Struggling With Sin
7What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "Do not covet."[2] 8But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of covetous desire. For apart from law, sin is dead. 9Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. 10I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death.
11For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. 12So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good. 13Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! But in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it produced death in me through what was good, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.
14We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[3] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing. 20Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
21So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.
Re: Continued
Date: 2004-07-09 06:56 pm (UTC)Keep in mind that I'm not making a blanket statement about Christianity in general. I've interacted with many Christians whose faith brings them great joy, and that makes me very happy. I don't begrudge them that joy, simply because their beliefs differ from my own. They live their faith, and their lives are enriched by it. It's just that I don't see that with you, personally. I don't know what would give you joy. I would hope that you keep searching until you find it, though. Maybe you can find joy in Christianity, even the denomination you're currently in. Maybe you can find it elsewhere. Your religious beliefs are really irrelevent to me. What I do find relevent is how it affects your life. And right now, I see a bitter person, who can't accept that there are many many paths to Truth, to God, to Love, and they are all equally valid. It's a subtle, vicious circle, which leaves one with a sense of empty hubris, and fear. Both qualities I see in you. I'm not saying that to judge you, or to be mean to you. I'm merely stating what I see.
Frankly, I doubt that your spiritual preference has much to do with those feelings, but each religion gives its followers a different set of tools, and I can't see that you've built anything with yours. I will concede, however, that my knowledge of you is limited, but your posts say so much.
I've enjoyed your comments on polyamory. They made me think, to process my own reasons for it, and in the end, I believe even more strongly that this path is the right one for me. I thank you for helping me to come to that decision.
I'm not quite sure how the conversation got turned to another discussion on Christianity vs. Paganism. It's unnecessary, in my opinion. There doesn't ever have to be a "vs.". And, in the end, I could care less what your religion is. I'd like to see you happy, but it's not my place to make you happy, and your place to find it. I have those rights, as well, and I've found what makes me happy. I have joy in my life in abundance. I have struggles, too, but I find a joy in those, as well. I feel the presence of the Divine all around me - all I have to do is stop and pay attention.
I won't stop you from continuing this discussion, but I have no interest in converting you to something that doesn't speak to your heart, nor do I have any interest in being converted. It's nice to have a look at the other side now and again, but in the end, we must all follow our hearts.
Re: Continued
Date: 2004-07-10 08:01 pm (UTC)Biblical End Times
Date: 2004-07-05 11:24 pm (UTC)Straight from Scripture
How close are we?
One theme running throughout the Bible is that God never judges or punishes without first warning His people. Warnings were given before The Flood (Genesis 6), before the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah (Genesis 18-19), before events of the Passover story (Exodus 12) and in the warning to Israel that he would be held captive by Babylon 70 years. (Jeremiah 13-18)
Instead God does His utmost to shake us loose from complacency and wrong behavior so that all may be saved. The Lord is . . . not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:9)
This is one reason for the judgments in Revelation. His children have been thoroughly warned so none can complain they didn't have a clue. These times will see such catastrophic, horrific events none would survive except that the Lord cuts these judgments short.
Throughout scripture, in both the Old and New Testaments, God gives many, many indications when End Time Prophecies are about to be fulfilled.
In Matthew 24:32, Jesus tell us to watch for the rebudding of the fig tree - a symbol of Israel. He warns two verses later when this happens, the generation that sees it "will not pass" until all these things (the judgments and return of the Lord) take place.
The nation of Israel became re-established in 1948. This event has set the Lord's clock in motion and he warns that "when you see all these things, recognize that I will be near, right at the door" (Matthew 24:33). So while that we may know only "the times and the seasons", not a specific date, the Lord could arrive literally at any moment.
Israel's Signs:
Israelis will come back to their country.
When the Jews return to Israel, the desert will bloom.
The Hebrew language will be revived.
They will occupy Jerusalem.
Israel's statehood will be re-established.
Their military strength will become mighty.
World politics will focus on Israel and many (most) countries will turn against her.
Signs in Societal Breakdown:
People will have no regard for the law, becoming violent, immoral, greedy, selfish, hedonistic and rebellious. Total family break down will be common, all of which brings on great despair.
2 Timothy 3:1-4, 6
This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent (unrestrained sexual appetites), fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
Mark 13:12
Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death.
Biblical End Times - Continued
Date: 2004-07-05 11:26 pm (UTC)And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
Other indicators of these times include drug use.
Revelation 9:21
Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.
NOTE: The Greek word for sorceries in Rev 9:21, "pharmakeia", means pharmaceuticals or drugs.
And increased homosexuality.
Luke 17:28-30
Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
Romans 1:24, 26-27
Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
These same problems were seen in Noah's time when God wiped the slate clean with The Flood; now the same transgressions are rampant again.
Matthew 24:37-39
But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Global Political Signs:
War and talk of war.
Rise of a European superstate.
In the "latter days" after Israel had became a nation, there would be a great military power to their extreme north in the land of Magog (Russia).
Rise of an Asian nation capable of assembling 200 million troops
Rise of global government
With the destruction of Babylon, a global economy moves into position.
Signs in Nature:
Earthquakes, famines, disease
Disease will be rampant the world over
There will also be frightening events seen in the sky including UFOs, comets/meteors, wild weather and malevolent storms.
All of these events will so frightening, they will cause men to faint and suffer heart attacks.
Spiritual Signs:
Apostasy - doctrinal and moral departure will be seen in the church.
Even worse, some will turn from the Lord to Satanism.
There will be those who mock about the "End Times".
Christians and Jews will experience persecution.
There will be trends Toward Ecumenical religion leading to the one world religion.
Many will claim to be the Lord.
Yet through all this, the Gospel will spread worldwide.
And not until then will Bible prophecy become clear.
And there will be a great outpouring of the Holy Spirit.
Signs in Technology:
There will be an explosion in knowledge and travel.
Computer technology is needed to implement the Mark of the Beast.
Use of robotics, holograms, clones or other technology.
Satellite transmission
Use of nuclear weapons
I took this from this site: http://standeyo.com/index1.html. You can read all the scripture there. I didn't have enough room for all the scripture.
Love,
Michelle
Re: Biblical End Times - Continued
Date: 2004-07-06 03:14 am (UTC)Re: Biblical End Times - Continued
Date: 2004-07-09 01:48 am (UTC)Original Story/Author
Date: 2004-07-06 12:56 pm (UTC)http://www.emotional-literacy.com/fuzzy.htm
Re: Original Story/Author
Date: 2004-07-09 01:04 am (UTC)And isn't that what love's all about? Going all the way with it? Sure, that's not always gonna mean sex, but it's not always NOT gonna mean it either, and marital status really has nothing to do with that.
(Sorry... perhaps went a little overboard in this response. I was waxing philosophical, but perhaps some of this would have been better addressed to Michelle.)