Because I Can't Run From This Forever...

[bookofmirrors]

"You got some concerned fans out here." - Thus sayeth the feygirl.

I have fans? I wouldn't have thought so...

Anyway, I'm up, and I'm reluctantly willing to post this now, so I guess I'll get on to it...



OK... so, I'm not sure where to start. Partially 'cause I've waited too long, and that makes it harder to remember exactly what happened. And I do so like being accurate and thorough. So, I'll do the best I can. This is all through my filters, anyway, so "accuracy" is a great goal, at best.

Let's backtrack a little. For the most part, this is in response to blckwngdorcl's most recent post. But, it almost seems like this post has been over a year in the making, maybe longer. But let me start where it starts for me, this time around.

My most recent Core class was last month. On the first day, we all usually just kinda say where we are with our lives, what's been going on with us lately, etc.. I had lots of things to say, but when I started talking about blckwngdorcl, and about how he was still looking for a job, they all went ballistic. (Disclaimer - not "all", of course, and "ballistic" is my term, and probably not the least bit accurate - but that's how it felt at the time.) They focused on that, and their reaction was so strong, and so shattering to me that to this day, all the other things I had been planning to mention, which were significant to me, have left my head. I left feeling completely disconstructed. I was devastated, and came home and curled up with blckwngdorcl in bed, and told him about it, and cried for a very long time on his shoulder. My memory of this whole thing is very vague. I was in a different headspace at the time, and being in a deconstructed space does not lend itself well to making an LJ entry about it. Plus, even now, I find myself loathe to post what I do remember about it, because it incriminates me. I don't want to go into that despair again, don't want to feel like I've been living that much of a lie. But... I suppose I wouldn't be writing this entry if I weren't planning on going there. Hitting the "delete" key is certainly tempting, but not writing all this down is unhealthy for me, and I know this.

OK, so here's what I remember, and take it with as many grains of salt as you like, 'cause, like I said, my memory of it is disjointed, and seeped in emotion which doesn't translate well into a neat chronological accurate representation.

Anyway, I was talking about how blckwngdorcl had gone into the apprenticeship program at the Grooming School, and how they turned to out to be a bit shady, and he'd left them, and was currently looking for other options to learn pet grooming. They all agreed that the place sounded shady, and that it was a good thing he'd gotten out of it. But somewhere in there, they got upset about his not having had a job this whole time, while I worked myself sick to pay the bills (or mostly pay the bills, with lots of help). Which, yeah, is true. Intellectually, I could agree with everything they were saying, everything that a LOT of people have said over the past couple years where this has been the case. In case any of you don't know, the deal is that blckwngdorcl left his job at FedEx about the time I started working for Sona, 'cause it was actually a good financial move for us to do so, and it meant that the house stayed clean all the time, 'cause he was put in charge of cleaning it. That worked well for a while, until it became clear that my income didn't really cut it. At that time, I asked him to look for a job, so he could help out financially. At the time, we were living at Harmony, which meant dealing with CCT, or walking. He said CCT sucked, which I'd heard elsewhere, so we agreed it would be limited to somewhere he could walk to. Which, it never seemed, there were any jobs. He looked, I think, but I also think his energy wasn't in it. This pattern has continued just about to present day. Him looking, to no avail, and me working so much I get sick, and have very little joy in life. Yeah, sure, if you looked at it intellectually, he could have found a job of SOME sort, if he really wanted to, and the fact that he didn't - in the clear face of my declining health, and tearful begging on more than one occassion that he find something, anything, so that I could cut back on hours, and even my anger now and again - well, any logical person would say that he was fucking me over, taking advantage of me.

But I didn't believe that. Or, at least, I didn't want to. He was my husband. The man who loved me most in the world. The man who was appalled at my stories of how I took care of Fig financially, of how I used *my* birthday and Christmas money to buy Fig his birthday and Christmas presents, and despised him because of it. Surely, he wouldn't be doing a variation of the same thing. Not him, never him. He wasn't that bad of a person. I had learned my lesson, I hadn't picked the same kind of man twice, I was better than that. No, no, people just didn't understand us, didn't understand him. Besides, until I came along, he'd had a steady job all the time, with less than a month at a time of being unemployed, ever. So, certianly, the problem wasn't his. Oh, well, no, it wasn't mine, either. We just chose this lifestyle, of him being at home, and, oops, silly us, it didn't work for us, and, well, he just hasn't found the right job yet. It'll happen when it's the right time for it to happen, the Universe knows what it's doing, and who are we to question. Besides, if he's going through such a hard time with all this, that's OK. I'm the strong one, and if he needs me to work a little longer while he figures some stuff out, I can do that. I can work forever. No, no, I'm not THAT sick. It'll be over soon, and he'll be the partner he always promised me he would be, and then things will be perfect.

Pathetic, isn't it?

And I actually BELIEVED that shit. There were parts of me, to be sure, that didn't. Parts of me that were scared, and miserable, and knew what was going on, but I wouldn't listen. To this day, I have to fight NOT to believe it. We've had some really good talks, he and I, where we discussed all this, and he promised it would get better. And I believed him. If the stupid Grooming School hadn't been so apparently crooked, he would be well on his way to being a pet groomer now. And yes, early on, his energy was very much of someone who was trying to say the right thing to get me off his back. I knew, deep down, that this was just appeasement, but wanted so much to believe that it really meant something, that it would result in him getting a job, and life being better for both of us. Later, his energy changed, but that's only been in the past few months. Up to that point, it was all appeasement. Now, yeah, I do believe his energy has changed, to the point where he means what he says. In the meantime, though... still no job. So, we're still at square one.

Anyway, at the time of my classes, I was still firmly rooted in all the denial of the above statements. And they totally lit into me about it. They lit into him for being such a dickhead, and into me for letting it happen. In my head, even though they said over and over again that it was NOT my only option, I kept thinking they were telling me that the only way to stand up for myself was to leave him. That that was the only way I could really be strong, really put my foot down, and show him I meant business.

But I didn't want to do that. I love him. I love being his wife. Hell, that's one of the few pleasures I have left in life. Other than the financial stuff, I think we have a great relationship. I have fun with him. I can open up to him, more than I open up to anyone. We share our emotions, ourselves, we've gone through good times and bad. As I said on the bed at class, crying, being married to him is the only thing in my life that I feel like I've really done right. The thought of not having him, having that, throws me into a deep pit of despair. (Actually, also pathetic, if you think about it.)

They said I was codependent.

That's probably the hardest thing I had to hear. And, the part that made this entry so scary to write. I find myself struggling with that concept, even though I've been reading a bit on it, and I do seem to fit that pattern. Oh, hell, who am I kidding? I do fit that pattern. Others, I think, have told me that in the past, and I don't think I've heard it. Hell, interestingly enough, lunenoire used that exact word in an email to me, before the class, and I literally didn't see it. Not until re-reading it after the fact. I've been hugely in denial about it.

I actually find myself going through the stages of grief about the concept of being codependent. I think I'm currently mostly in the depression stage, but I jump around a lot, which is common. This is SO not the person I want to be. I despise it. I hate myself for it, for being such a wimp, for allowing this to happen to me. Hell, I had this image of myself as strong and competent. Hell, even the things that allowed me to be in such denial about it I considered good qualities. I didn't just look at the surface of things. Sure, if you looked at my relationship with blckwngdorcl from a mere intellectual standpoint, sure it was all fucked up. But I was above all that. I could see the spirituality of it, the great wonder of the lessons the Universe was trying to teach us, to teach me. We didn't have to be bound by the rest of society's rules, we didn't have to make sense to anyone but us.

(Note: This sounds very much like what elorie and fornorald have said in the past. I say this not to point fingers, but because when I (apparently mistakenly) mentioned something to elorie about them being single and not dating, both she and fornorald got pissed off at me, to the point where he called me on the phone, and pointed out that, if someone sees something in someone else's relationship, it's likely a reflection of your own. I told him that, while I believed that, I didn't see a correlation at that time. When lunenoire and I changed the nature of our relationship, I assumed that was the reflection, but it appears that THIS situation was the reflection. Hell, I was even thinking that, even though I didn't SAY it often, I'd felt that way for YEARS about their relationship, and it was only when I got REALLY frustrated about it that I bothered to say something... which, in my mind, sorta negated what he said. But, as I mentioned earlier, it would seem like this post has been years in the making, so... *tips hat to fornorald* ...you were right.)

Anyway, when I came home from class, and, over the course of a couple of days, told blckwngdorcl what was said, and how I felt about it, we had more good talks, which included him saying that he'd let me down in the past, and wouldn't do so again.

Somewhere in there, he was looking for a job at PetSmart, 'cause that's where the general consensus of the atlanta people said to go to learn/have a job in pet grooming. Let me say right now that PetSmart has THE most fucked up hiring process I've ever seen. He and I were both so confident that he was going to get that job, that he didn't look anywhere else, and I didn't care. But, no dice, at least not so far, and it's been too long. So, finally, I asked what he was going to do now. He seemed a little upset, but said he would look elsewhere. And he has. How hard, I'm not sure. Hell, at this point, I no longer trust myself to know, or even judge rightly, how hard or well he's looking for a job.

So, the thing that prompted his post was, after a really good day spent together, we somehow got talking about money. He'd found some money tucked away in his wallet, and was happy to have found it. He ended up spending a great deal of it while we were out, and lamented that, 'cause he so rarely had any money. Somehow this ended up in me getting frustrated, and reminding him that any money he had came from me, so I had every right to have a say in how it was spent. This sorta snowballed into me giving him a reality check on just exactly what had been going on financially in our relationship for the past few years, how he'd not come through, and how he'd done a lot of things he swore he wouldn't do, how he'd become Fig in many ways, after he swore he never would. A lot of things were said. And, somehow, the stars were aligned enough that I think it finally sunk in. At least, his attitude and actions, as well as his post, would seem to indicate that. I can only hope I'm not fooling myself again.

But... let me say this. This isn't an entry to bash blckwngdorcl. That wouldn't be completely fair. Because I have a lot of culpability in this, too. I told him all this, of course, but it bears repeating here.

I wanted him to fix himself. I wanted him to go out and get a job, do all the right things. Not just because it would help us, help me, help him. But because, for him to do so, would allow me to remain in denial, allow me to not grow. If he went out and got a job, and left me with nothing to be codependent about, then I was automatically cured, right? Or so I wanted to believe. If he fixed himself, then I wouldn't have to take a stand about anything. I wouldn't have to be the bad guy. Him being "cured" of his dependency would automatically "cure" me of my codependency, right?

Yeah, even I'm not that stupid, much as I would like to be.

So, I picked something to take a stand on. Valentine's Day. I won't work on the 15th, plus it's a payday. We were gonna do the chocolate thing and IMAX at Fernbank, and a show at Agatha's, along with whatever else struck our fancy. It was going to be a good day, a day of fun, love, and togetherness. Funded entirely by me. I took a stand on that day, because one of the things I resisted about taking a stand was how it would affect *me*. I didn't want to suffer the consequences of cutting him off financially. That would mean that fun days financed by me were right out. And I didn't want that, in a "this hurts me more than it hurts you" sorta way. So, Valentine's Day seemed the perfect foil for that. Or the perfect example of it, as the case may be. It seems like a small stand to take. Now, the only thing we have scheduled on Valentine's Day (or the 15th) is a chiropractor appointment, made and paid for weeks ago. After that... well, my paycheck is going to be short, 'cause of my "broken" ankle and being sick the other day, and I do have one bill to pay. I've thought about taking a day for myself, a day of self-pampering, although I haven't figured out just what yet. I don't want to do any of that out of spite against blckwngdorcl. I want to do it because I want to do something nice for myself, because I deserve it.

Of course, right now, I don't feel like I deserve much of anything. dai_syn and I have a dinner pending, and it always strangely seems to fall around Valentine's Day. We had great fun last year, confusing the poor waiter, who thought we were a couple. I could do that. Hell, it might even be in the budget. Not so sure about that... But that just seems TOO spiteful, under the circumstances. dv8dgrrl, among others, has expressed a desire for coffee and whatnot. I could do all that on that day. Part of me feels like I'll be in mourning, though. And, doing all that precludes massages and pedicures and whatnot... there are only so many hours in the day, after all. And the floatation tank place won't be open yet, or else I'd for sure go there. I might do P&D. Yeah, P&D for sure.

So... I don't know if any of that made a bit of sense, bit if it was confusing, then you probably have an even more accurate idea of where I'm at in my head. I've felt like shit lately, both physically and mentally. I've been dealing with a new and unpleasant view of myself. I've been wondering if I picked up a copy of the DSM-IV, I'd find myself on the pages of the definition of clinical depression. I've even considered pharmacological intervention, and I don't even believe in that. (Well, I compromised on thoughts of homeopathic antidepressants.) I've wished I didn't owe my therapist so much money, and felt comfortable asking for a session or two, even though I can't pay for it. She'd probably let me, too. But I don't feel like I deserve it. Pretty much, I'm having a hard time feeling like I deserve much of anything right now. Which, y'know, is a bad place to be when you're trying to stand up for yourself, and say that you DO deserve the good stuff, and that, dammit, you're willing to do the hard stuff to get it. (Not the working till I'm sick part... the standing up for myself part.)

Anyway, I'm posting this now, before I lose my nerve.

Comments

[missakins.livejournal.com]

Unless he quit in a bad fashion at FedEx, he'd likely be able to be rehired.
He can call recruitment (404-728-5200) and see about it.

[bookofmirrors.livejournal.com]

Thanks, sweetie. Actually, we had ruled FedEx out. Not because he left on bad terms, but because, financially, it just wasn't worth working there. The pay was good, but the hours sucked (as in, not enough of them), so we just decided to pass them over.

He's playing you like a fine fiddle.

[(Anonymous)]

He's not going to call FedEx. He's not going to work. Everything that he could go for is going to be shady or wrong or something that makes every bit of sense to feel he's above it.

Meanwhile, you are literaly killing yourself taking care of him. You are not his wife. You are his mother. You are not his love. That would be Lunenoire. You are his mealticket.

He's holding on because he's living a dream life. He takes care of no one. Everyonetakes care of him.

Does he love you? Find out. Tell him to move out until he can pay his share. If you aren't financing him, do you really think he's going to stay around you or find another place to land his lazy ass.

Even his post is FILLED with I and me. Count them. AND he disabled comments. He knows damn well what people will say. It's very obvious. They will tell the truth. And he doesn't want the truth to be told. Not because he is scared of it. He knows it. He's scared you realize. Then what will he do.

You need to love you. You need to fill yourself with love until you don't need someone dependent on you. You posted once about that being something you do. The reason why is because you think unless you are paying someone they won't stick around. This guy is so good he's got you all in angst over his unwillingness to help. Somehow you think it's your fault.

You are so wrong. You are so lovely and loving and loveable. You have the heart of 10 giants. As painful as it would be to adjust to life without him, you are not going to get any better until you take care of yourself. You are the only one who can do it.

But, nver forget you are very much loved.

Take all the time you need to work on self love and self care.

Re: He's playing you like a fine fiddle. (1 of 2)

[bookofmirrors.livejournal.com]

Your comments were the hardest to respond to. Partially, 'cause I don't know who you are. I'd like to know, certainly. Everyone at the house has theories... notsomuch of who you are specifically, but things that would narrow it down to who you aren't. Although you totally threw me with your statement of not even knowing me. Clearly, you've read my LJ for a long time, so you must know me in that sense. I had the impression you knew me in person, though. You make a lot of comments on my character, so you must know me somehow. *shrug* I can't force you to reveal your identity, either here, or in an email to me (bookofmirrors[at]livejournal[dot]com), but I'd really be interested in knowing.

That being said, it's hard for me to respond to what seems like a pure villification of blckwngdorcl. Does he deserve it? I don't think to the extent that you've done it, but certainly to more of an extent than I've done it. Anger has always been hard for me, and I'd have to get pretty angry to have those opinions of him - I'm just not there yet. It would probably be very healthy for me to be in that place, but I'm just not right now. Perhaps you feel the need to be angry on my behalf, since I'm not doing a very good job at it. I don't begrudge you that - you're not the first, and it's nice to know that someone is outraged, even if it's not me, yet.

Your subsequent comments lack the vitriol of this comment, for which I'm grateful. Partially because it makes them easier to deal with because the harshness isn't there. Partially because, as much as I resisted it initially, it forced me to not lump you into a category that would have just made you some freak on a rant. It proved you had something else to say, and that you weren't just spewing anger.

Anyway, hard to take or not, you have some good points, and some points that are clearly just a function of not knowing blckwngdorcl personally. I think even lunenoire would call bullshit at him, not me, being blckwngdorcl's "love". Which isn't to say he doesn't love him, of course... just that it's different.

[isarma.livejournal.com]

I don't know who anonymous is, but they made some fine points. I don't think he schemes to get you to do this. I don't think he's being evil. I think it's fucked up and I don't know him nearly well enough to know why. And honey, even in this post, lotsa BS. Love you, but BS. I've been there to hear your sudden bursts of late night honesty for years and this started *way* before Fedex. In fact, Fedex was a job for what, 11 hours a week?! The norm for most of your relationship is him being slack and lazy and only getting jobs briefly to appease you. I don't know much of his work history before you, but I've heard you both mention the debts he owed, not just to companies, but the his fellow roommates. Times he got kicked out for months of nonpayment. If he worked and supported himself, how did this happen?

You know my view. You love Glenn, He loves you. I get it. But this is not just about money. This is a pervasive thing in other areas of the relationship. It's not because you won't call him on it...you keep the peace. And, for your part, how much of you has engineered this, I don't know, but I think you like that he has no world outside of you. Did you help create his dependancy on your or do you just seek out those who will hyperfocus on you, I don't know.

I think you should set and stick to a firm date. Have a job and paycheck by this date or move. Seriously. I'd be halftempted to kick him out immediately. If you don't do it, that's your choice, but hear this part: anything less is BS. If you try to tell yourself that he's doing better and give it a shot, you'll just let him surf for another 6 months. He needs to get over his sense of entitlement that he deserves a job he loves and settle for one he can cope with that pays the bills and *then* look for the one he loves...like the rest of the adults in the world have had to do at one point or another.

My thoughts on the househusband bit...the Fedex job was not lucrative because the hours were so little. I think you created the househusband concept in order to keep him. I think you talked yourself into it to avoid having to put your foot down, to no avail, again and then wonder what to do. I've done it before with other things.

Anyway, I'm sure I could go on. This is my honest response. I love you and I like Glenn (don't feel he's ever let me see him enough to say more than that), but seriously, about damn time. And good for them. I'm glad someone finally got through. I'm sorry you both feel you've got no life outside eachother, but you created that. You've smothered off everything that doesn't compliment the codependant cycle...this coming from a once close friend who talks to you maybe 3 times a year. And no, I'm not mad, I'm just saying, there's no room for anyone else in that.

[(Anonymous)]

I agree. I don't think he schemes to get you to do this at all. He's not a bastard. He's fighting his own demons and fears (a statement which, I am quite sure made you want to scoop him up and take care of him. :))

It 'feels' more like a case of two really nice people who hooked up but feed into each others weaknesses rather than strengths. As a result, he doesn't have to work on his problems or pull his own weight. You will kill yourself trying to do it for him.

The sad thing is that he is the only one who can do it. And you have given him permission not to.

I read all of these and think of how much it must hurt you to read it. I am sorry for any pain. I knew my remarks were harsh but I am worried about you. I think to smile and soothe and say, don't worry would be a great disservice to you. I don't want you to hurt anymore.

Are we right or wrong? I don't know. I don't even know you. But I do know how wonderful you are. And whether he gets a job or you die trying to support him, you should know you are fantastic and people care.

TAKE CARE OF YOU! PLEASE. You are doing no one a favor by killing yourself. And, while all solutions probably seem overwhelming, you will have to chose one at some point and proceed. When you do, best of luck and all of my prayers will be with you.

[bookofmirrors.livejournal.com]

Thanks, sweetie. I'm not willing to kick him out. I'm just not. Call that what you like, but that's not a step I'm willing to take. Cut him off financially, except for the rent/utilities thing, yeah. But to kick him out altogether. I'm just not there, and not sure I will be, or even want to be.

For the most part, I agree with everything you've said. Oh, with the exception of him getting kicked out of somewhere due to non-payment. That never happened, although it may have gone through the grapevine to become that. But yeah... the doing whatever I felt I had to do to keep him, isolating myself, and him, really, so that we only had each other to turn to. Yeah... I had only scratched the surface of that dynamic in my head, but it's pretty fucked up. I mean, that's a clear earmark of an abusive, not just a dysfunctional, relationship. I don't like to think of myself as an abuser. Hell, I'm still trying to wrap my head around codependent. I could justify part of the isolation by saying that, when I worked a lot, I had so little time to myself, and for my relationship, that I wanted to spend what little free time I had with my husband. Which is most certainly true, but wouldn't account for the time since September, when my hours went down. So, yeah, definitely perpetuating that.

*sigh* So much to think about...

[simplysakka.livejournal.com]

I can see this, all of it, and for the record, I'm thinking that anonymous is being too harsh. You're right, you created this reality *together* - both of you, and for the most part, we've just sat on the sidelines watching it turn into what it has turned into.

I think everyone else has that thread covered; what I really want to focus on is your reluctance to admit this, or really, anything. Hon, we all have weaknesses. We all are human in one way or another, sometimes many ways. Some of us are stronger in some areas than in others. To admit one's shortcomings, well... There are many that balk at this, but I encourage you, particularly since you have been doing the Core Energetics for so long, face them. Face your fears, face your weaknesses, face your shortcomings. It's a lot easier to deal with them once you have them out in the open. Keeping them hidden, keeping them clandestine, it's like twice the struggle. You're spending all this time and energy trying to hide and not face the things about yourself you know need to be worked on, and honestly, it's much more liberating if you simply say, "Okay, so...I'm co-dependent." It isn't the end of the world. So you are, and then you go to work and you begin healing.

Good luck (even though I don't really believe in luck), and remember there are a lot of folks out here who care and are pulling for you.

[bookofmirrors.livejournal.com]

Part of me is upset... you've said before that there were things about my marriage that you thought were fucked up (my paraphrasing, of course), but you weren't going to tell me what they were, 'cause you weren't like that (in contrast to me). So, I'm wondering, is this what you saw? Part of me wishes you'd said something earlier. But, I know I wouldn't have listened. Not then. I would have come up with the same rationalizations I cited in my post, and gone on my (not so) merry way. But I would have remembered, later, when I figured out you were right. And I would have reluctantly admitted it. But, be that as it may, that's water under the bridge right now, and, to be honest, lest you think otherwise, I'm not that upset by it. More like hurt. But I've been (and continue to be, in some cases) not completely forthcoming on my viewpoints regarding you, either.

And you'd think I'd be thrilled to have a label to what I am. Y'know, there are all sorts of books and therapies out there for codependents. Now I have something to work towards, and even a clear path how to do so. But, I don't see it that way. It's like I've fallen off my own pedestal. I smile ruefully at the irony of it, because I've always thought one of your problems was that you believed your own hype, when it turns out I was just as guilty of doing so. I wanted so much to believe that I was stronger, wiser, better than being in the type of relationship, the type of life I (co-)created, that I blinded myself to the possibility of being THIS fucked up. Mirror mirror.

*sigh* I'm very sorry. And thank you for your insights. You make a lot of good and valid points.

[fey-touched.livejournal.com]

Uh, though I was (and am) concerned, I hope you didn't post this before you were actually ready to post it.

Wow, that was quite an unloading. Though I know it is painful as hell right now, I hope and pray that this is an opening for you to really examine these cycles, the energy put into them, and how to heal from them. It sounds like your Core group might provide you the safe space to do this.

It does not sound healthy. It does not sound like a good relationship. It is not the relationship between equals or partners.

I think the BOTH of you need to do some serious reflection and practical action. Practical action on your part may mean setting firm deadlines with Glenn about getting a job - not the perfect job as Sarah says, but one that pays the bills until he can look for a better one. Practical action on his part is seriously looking for said job and taking steps to show how much he appreciates you.

Both of you should reflect on what you want out of a relationship (not YOUR relationship but out of A relationship; less room for "oh, it's not that bad..."). Then talk about what those things *mean* to one another. One person's definition of "partnership" might be different from the other person's. This is you setting the parameters for what you *need* and *deserve* here.

Do not settle for less. I promise you, you deserve a lot.

[bookofmirrors.livejournal.com]

*shrug* I posted it, so I must have been ready. Anything else would have been avoidance, and, in fact, I was already being avoidant, and I didn't want to do that anymore.

And yeah. I'm hoping/praying for this whole experience to be a huge fucking learning experience. I'm sure I'll look back at this as one of the major turning points of my life, and of my relationship with my husband. Right now... it's just hard.

We're already working on the things you've suggested, except for the sitting down and mapping out a relationship. A very good idea. Might be a great thing for Wednesday.

Thank you.

[setinstones.livejournal.com]

Im gonna take some wild stabs here. I dont know either of you well enough to get to the gooey innards of the situation, but*cracks knuckles* lets see what I can come up with.

I think everyone above has some really good points and has provided alot of food for thought. Ive gotta say from just reading this post the "do whats right for great justice" side of me was nodding vigorously at the first comment. Maybe its just the texan in me but the words "behind" and "woodshed" came to mind alot. I dont think he is by any means a bad person, but this aversion to doing what needs to be done needs to be remedied and quick. For your sake as well as his.

Having said all that Im going to take a diffrent tack now.
I'm thinking one of the main reasons you have put up with being the sole provider for so long is, well, your a care taker. You like the feeling you get when someone's comfort is provided for by you, and the appreciation you get or should be getting in return. Mandy is the same way, for her and maybe you I think its a latent motherly instict that needs to be fullfilled and since she does not ever want to be a mother I'm the one thats on the recieving end.

Now when the appreciation that was expected was coming home to a clean house everything was dandy. However your expectation changed and you comunicated that to him, he agreed to change something so you continued to be happy being a care taker. When it became clear that he would not meet the new expectation the problems started to kick in. The problem would be bandaged over with half hearted attempts on his part along with reasurances that things would be all better. You becuase you wanted things to be better accepted said bandages.

Of course bandages heal nothing, they only allow the underlying wound to heal without outside influences making it worse while keeping anything that festers from of the wound from getting out.

The wound was never treated and now needs an immidiate remedy least the body die. Amputation is an option. Cut it off and cast it away. Otherwise he needs to seak imdiate treatment and make a change in his actions today. And I mean today.

The bad part even him getting work wont fix the problems you have now. It will help make some of the other problems manageable but you two have a long painful road ahead if the marriage is going to work.

Obviously not everything is his or your fault and im not trying to lay blame for the entirity of your issues on him. But this one thing, the work thing, I feel comfortable saying is all him. It shows a lack of care for you.

If I were in your shoes, and granted Im not as nice of person as you are, I would find a number for a day labor place, find a way to get him there, and tell him "there, there is work" He could two things at that point, turn it down, thereby proving he wont change ro agree showing a great ammount of care for you.

I gaurantee you he would have a stable job shortly there after. Digging ditches tends to do that.

Granted that was written with the notion that other than cleaning he is not doing anything to better his or your place in the world. If thats not the case then I take some of the harshness out my comment.

Next step cut off funds. Obviously dont starve him, but part of being a care taker is being a discplinarian. If your paying for the games, the internet or what have you. Off they go. And ask others not to circumvent you on that. If they care about him then they will want to see him better himself and will agree.

If those dont work leave. Maybe not permanently. Go stay with a freind or relative for a few weeks or months without sending back any finacial help. the intervening time would be very telling.

Im glad you are able to let all this out.

Like I said I like everyone in your house but we all have things we need to change about ourselves

[(Anonymous)]

I believe setinstones hit it on the head about the care giver part. I think that is a huge part of your attraction to people who need/want it. But it can and will suck the life out of you if you only give and never take or are given.

[bookofmirrors.livejournal.com]

I don't have much of a response to what you said, really. You pretty much hit the nail on the head with just about all of it. And we're doing a great deal of what you mentioned (although not all). Thanks for sharing all that.

Hugs

[(Anonymous)]

I reread this and I hope I didn't hurt your feelings but I'm sure I did.

I am so sorry. My intention was to give you things to think about. I feel like I know what you are going through because it's the story of my life. I see myself in you.

Bottom line: I wish you all happiness. NO ONE deserves it more than you.

The nitpicking bastard asks a question, for his benefit...

[lunenoire.livejournal.com]

...when you posted this, were you looking for comments of the type preceding this one?

The post was intended to share the beginning actualization of a life change. The comments you received were offering support, advice on how to handle the situation, insights as to the foundation of events and decisions leading up to the threshold, etc., but re-reading your post, I don't recall you asking for any of that, really, so most of these answers are, regardless of their quality and level of support, unsolicited.

Some more experienced than I in livejournal etiquette might say that leaving a post set it a public livejournal open for comments is an invitation to receive unfiltered communications from anyone. To be fair, I've never heard you say, "I wasn't ready to hear that" *after* the fact. It definitely leaves it more organic; I'm so controlling about what I "say" (posts) and what I "hear" (comments) that I'm sure that others reading it feel that my livejournal is works against the very purpose of the openness in using livejournal.

To be frank, every comment posted here so far has had some valid point or observation to make, but they aren't things you haven't heard or observed before. Your supporters are grabbing the opportunity to sway you toward a healthier state of being, and I don't blame them, because of the filters you've put up in the past against anyone who didn't agree with your viewpoint at the time. Those are some pretty formidable barriers. But in the end, it does come to down to what you're willing to act on, and I'm just wondering if they are as a whole remaining conscious of that fact, not to mention that your post is about you, and not about blckwngdorcl.

Don't get me wrong: I'm not asking them to quietly ignore the presence of your husband. The authors are all expressing their support and love for you and their desire for your health, which is a good thing...but, as someone pointed out to me earlier today, this trend of posts could be interpreted as placing your relationship with blckwngdorcl on trial, and that is somewhat counterproductive.

I don't feel by posting your feelings you were asking others to help slam blckwngdorcl for his culpability in the dynamic you both created and now are trying to change. To explain that, I venture that in some cases your friends and readers have gotten so frustrated with seeing you in misery (not to mention all the times they advised you before) that they're skirting the act demonizing blckwngdorcl, and they're doing it in your journal because a) they have the opportunity, b) they have the stronger connection to you, and, in a couple of cases, c) because he wouldn't let them direct their comments to him in his own livejournal account.

Also, it's possible that your "fans" think that since your seemingly infinite (and co-dependent) patience with blckwngdorcl's responsibility issues didn't work, the reverse of that--vilifying him where he can read it also--will succeed in "turning him around." The logic doesn't hold up under scrutiny, and it shows an appalling lack of sensitivity in placing you both in a position as individuals and as a married couple to defend your ability to succeed in your relationship while you guys are working this out.

Whatever the reasons for the trend of comments, I want to know your motivation, and, if anything, what you want from "us" so that I can, if inclined, speak to it with the appropriate focus in the future. I'll use my own judgment whether what you're asking for would be a healthy support, or an enabling dynamic.

An addendum

[lunenoire.livejournal.com]

I was writing this so long over the course of the day that I didn't refresh before I posted...I'm glad to see that whomever Anonymous is, they re-thought their initial delivery, and apologized.

In light of that, I was tempted to delete the post I made, because I thought I might have commented responding primarily to Anonymous' tone...but I decided that my question and concerns were still valid, and that it might be good for future posters to take it into consideration once they read your post.

Re: The nitpicking bastard asks a question, for his benefit...

[bookofmirrors.livejournal.com]

Well... I hadn't really thought of what I wanted from comments. I mean, I figured there would be some, and I hoped that they wouldn't be of the scathing (to me) variety, although that's what I felt I deserved. There were some weak parts of me that were hoping for soothing "there there dear" responses, although I wouldn't really have believed or respected anyone that responded in that way. It would have been a hollow comfort at best. I was certainly interested (as I always am) in comments that explored the dynamic itself, and maybe offered some insights on the issues that I hadn't seen yet. Whether or not I could have responded in a healthy manner to such comments (or whether I have with the ones already written), I don't know. I'd like to think so, but I just don't know. I guess, overall, I just wanted honesty. Compassionate honesty, to be sure, but honesty, nonetheless. It's hard for me to take in the comments which include people loving me - I feel like my self-imposed isolation has earned me a forfeit for that type of feelings from friends whom I really haven't kept in contact with. Which, y'know, is pretty much everyone. *sigh* So, yeah, I'm feeling martyrish on that one.

What I did NOT want was blckwngdorcl's villification. However, I'm not sure I can be an objective judge of what is villification, and what is honest/compassionate/constructive criticism. Kinda like the big brother that beats up on his little sister on a regular basis... but let someone else try to do it...... I can certainly understand, though, as you said, about the frustration of those close to me, and the desire to demonize him.

*shrug* I hope that answers your question.

Re: The nitpicking bastard asks a question, for his benefit...

[(Anonymous)]

Lunenoire said: Also, it's possible that your "fans" think that since your seemingly infinite (and co-dependent) patience with blckwngdorcl's responsibility issues didn't work, the reverse of that--vilifying him where he can read it also--will succeed in "turning him around." The logic doesn't hold up under scrutiny, and it shows an appalling lack of sensitivity in placing you both in a position as individuals and as a married couple to defend your ability to succeed in your relationship while you guys are working this out.

That is hostile and demeaning. i worry about his influence in this situation because he doesn't seem to have your best interest at heart. Remember, he said himself, he carefully sees and hears what he wants to. And in the same post that he accuses people of villifying glenn, he villifies them and implies you did something wrong in your posting.

Be careful of this guy. He's fucking with your head. And I would bet the farm that glenn would be much further ahead of the game without him whispering in his ear.

Lunenoire said: Whatever the reasons for the trend of comments, I want to know your motivation, and, if anything, what you want from "us" so that I can, if inclined, speak to it with the appropriate focus in the future. I'll use my own judgment whether what you're asking for would be a healthy support, or an enabling dynamic.

What an arrogant asshole. It's very clear that you are not sure of your motivation or wants or needs. You're lost. You're in a relationship with a man you love. He loves you. But the dynamics are literally killing you. And he goes off on your friends then asks for answers you don't have so that "if inclined" he can speak to it.

this is toxic.

sorry. but i believe it with all i am. reading it gave me chills. This guy does not have your best interest at heart.

My part in this, part I.

[lunenoire.livejournal.com]

Anonymous poster(s), you don't know me, except from what you have read here.

Let me give you some info on what you don't know, and there's a lot.

To answer everyone casting a suspicious light on my motivations in making my original comment (and I'm not sure how many there are as there are multiple anonymous posts), let me make you aware of two things: bookofmirrors *already* doesn't trust me. From our conversations some of the distrust is in fact me (even if I'm not certain I've earned it through the usual means), and some of it is engendered by the baggage from previous experiences with others. Whether she trusts others more, or I'm just not trustworthy enough, is not something I can control or even want to think about, so I'm not sweating it. The distrust has always been there, even when we were romantically involved, and it hasn't gone away since we're not. So, you warning her about my influence isn't going to make her trust me anymore than she does, which is to say, in my mind, not at all...but warn away, if it floats your boat.

Two, I would insult the intelligence of anyone keeping up with this thread to pretend that I wouldn't put blckwngdorcl ahead of bookofmirrors. He is my boyfriend...he's *not* my husband (although early on we might have used that terminology in our triad, but I'll address that in another series of comments.) As my boyfriend, I will defend him and what he loves, and what he loves is bookofmirrors. Despite the presence of co-dependency, I can't dispute that there is a powerful love there between them, one that I've seen manifest some pretty wonderful moments, despite all the challenges and dysfunctions they have faced and are facing together, including naysayers who aren't present to see the magic that happens between the two of them when their demons aren't getting in their way. Attacking their love or undermining their marriage at any level whatsoever just wouldn't come out with anyone as a winner in any sort of light. I'm backing *them,* and I've said that if either of them ever came to me and said that my relationship with blckwngdorcl was harmful to either of them in any way, I would walk away. It would hurt, but that's the nature of relationships.

In fact, the possibility of my interference in their growth as a couple, whether conscious or otherwise, has moved up to the top of the list of reasons for me not to renew my lease with them in the summer. At the moment, I don't want to leave, but bookofmirrors has stated to me before that the cushion of having my income might have been influencing them both to put off dealing with this existing condition in their marriage. I understand about taking out all the liquor in an alcoholic's house to remove temptation, so leave I would, for everyone's sake.

My part in this, part II: me and <lj user="bookofmirrors">

[lunenoire.livejournal.com]

Going back to what existed between her and I:

bookofmirrors broke up with me after Thanksgiving break, effectively ending the triad. One of the reasons she offered for her decision was that she didn't have room in her life to negotiate another relationship. The reason *I'd* been thinking about stopping our part of the relationship was because I couldn't put up with the by-product of the issues she's discussing now, or the apparent lack of movement in addressing the dysfunctions between her and her husband--it was making the both of us unhappy. It wasn't fair to the both of us to stay in the relationship, but it wasn't fair that we had strikes against us being together right out of the gate, either, when it was obvious that we wanted to love each other, her and I. We didn't even have much of a chance to enjoy the "boyfriend/girlfriend" thing, honestly.

Anyway, I thought I could be a good spouse to her, and I thought she would bring me joy...and I started off with the right intentions, but I guess at some point I got caught up trying to be a good spouse to her in part to compensate with what I perceived blckwngdorcl wasn't doing to take care of her--and I came away from every interaction feeling that it didn't mean anything to her that I was trying. Her telling me "you don't feel like home to me like blckwngdorcl does" has a new meaning when I think of what "home" turned out to be, in light of her revelations. Calling a spade a spade, if you've convinced yourself that a home is supposed to be messy, and that you're supposed to keep fixing it up for it to be a home, moving into a clean house with a different kind of upkeep isn't going to feel like home to you.

What makes my role as bystander to all this doubly harder is that the self-awareness and capacity for being nakedly honest all you anonymous posters are admiring is what she wasn't doing it for herself back then, even though I knew it existed. No matter how hard I tried to create an environment between her and I to allow it to come forth, it didn't happen (or when it did, it didn't last), because allowing it to happen between us meant it would also happen between her and blckwngdorcl...and they both weren't ready for that. Now it's happened, and I won't deny that I'm holding out hope that bookofmirrors sticks to her guns, and that blckwngdorcl makes a change and makes it last...because as it stands, I really have no reason to believe that he and I wouldn't fall into the same pattern if the situation were the two of us, and knowing the reality of it, I would cut him off rather than let that happen, and much more quickly than it took bookofmirrors. That doesn't make me intrinsically better than her, it just prevents me from all the pain she's suffering at the moment trying to make this change in her marriage.

I'll address more about me and blckwngdorcl in yet another comment.

Re: My part in this, part II: me and <lj user="bookofmirrors">

[lunenoire.livejournal.com]

Sorry about the boldface near the end.

My part in this, part III: Me and BlckWngdOrcl

[lunenoire.livejournal.com]

A conversation blckwngdorcl and I had a week and a half ago brought to light the previously unspoken idea that he had accepted a romantic relationship with me as a consequence of the triad--not because he specifically wanted that kind of relationship with me, but that, as we all had discussed at the time, we fell in love with what we were like together, all three of us, in the early stages. He'd counted on all three of us being together forever when he proposed to me within our triad (with bookofmirrors's blessing), and now he was stuck on what to do in light of the new dynamic between bookofmirrors and myself.

By the end of the conversation, I released him from the role of "spouse" and all the responsibilities and definitions expected of that role. I'd accepted his proposal to be his partner in the beginning because I wanted to trust the idea it would work out, even with me knowing that it was too soon in the relationship to make that commitment, but, as I knew he'd made that decision in haste, I released him from it without resentment. Our conversation had started because I didn't feel he was living up to his role in my life as I perceived it and as he enacted it. Why set him up to fail by calling him my "spouse" when he hadn't even been fulfilling his spousal duties to bookofmirrors as would be right for a partnership of equals?

It was last night that we discussed starting our relationship over, because we had needed time from our conversation talk to think about what we wanted between us in the absence of a triad. I might have been guilty as anyone else about wanting the other two without knowing the individuals first when we fell in love with one another, so I placed myself under the gun: did blckwngdorcl want me romantically, as myself, no package deal? Judging by the great date we had, exploring the role of "boyfriends" seems to be the agreement, even amid all the tumult.

For those of you who still have trouble accepting that I'm not swaying anyone to the dark side, I ask you: why in God's name would I accept the same co-dependent dynamic from blckwngdorcl that bookofmirrors wants to break? It wouldn't benefit me, and eventually it would outweigh any benefit or affection between us.

Does the idea that I would want the two of them broken up, blckwngdorcl for myself, and bookofmirrors out of the picture, make any sense to anyone? What the hell would I have to gain in the quality of my life if I succeeded in my "master plan," replacing bookofmirrors as an enabler for blckwngdorcl? I've slept without a teddy bear for years.

My date nights mainly consisted of staying home because I'd have to pay for everything if I wanted to have as many outside dates as I wanted...and that's not about to change. Out-of-the-house dates are going to be precious few while I get myself back up to speed...and I'm not blaming anybody else for the decisions I've made financially (though for some reason I have always had trouble accepting that people work with the information they have about themselves at the time...so when something they believed was true doesn't turn out to be true, I should let it go.) I have ended up owing money to people with whom I'd rather not have any debt, because they're either friends, family, or people I'm not friendly with at the moment.

I'm not blind, crazy, or stupid. I love blckwngdorcl but while I'll defend him openly when I can, (because in my worldview I don't think assuming a neutral stance is the same as being fair, or defining your loyalties), I defend him specific to what *is* defensible. I don't defend his behavior when I think it's wrong, but I will sure as hell speak up when I think the criticisms of others are exceeding the scope of points that are relevant...which is what I do with all my friends. I rescued myself from setting myself up to be a parent to him in our relationship just in time, because I was infatuated with being in love and how I felt being with him. Now I hope to enjoy the boyfriend thing while this accord lasts, and see how it turns out.

**rolls eyes**

[isarma.livejournal.com]

On the nohari meme, I just found your link and filled it out, but I'm posting my comment under here because it's relevant. Cause I'm nosey like that, I scan to see who else said what...blckwngdorcl all sound like he's saying, "She pushes me too ward. I want my way." Seriously. I found most of them to be *opposite land*...like you, inflexible? impatient? Sure, I don't live in the marriage so there are things I don't know, obviously, but if anything sometimes you're too patient or flexible. So, I was generally annoyed and commented here...You'll notice there weren't many other votes, if any, for those adjectives. Just sayin...

[lunenoire.livejournal.com]

*sigh* Now I have to be just a little less of a cynic about LJ...someone actually reversed their position on an issue and apologized with grace and without ego.

Darn it. Now I might lose my villain card and toaster oven.

FYI, I didn't assume the anonymous posts were all by the same person, so I spoke to the tone of each one as it hit me.

Unfortunately, when I edit myself in the middle of being angry, it always runs the risk of sounding passive aggressive, when I'm really not that type. However, when I wait to cool down, sometimes I lose the points that set me off in the first place, so.."swim or die."

Good luck to you. And...thanks.

*mutters* I could swear it's another person posting....

Wow What A Lot Of Stuff To Read

[(Anonymous)]

I don't know how long it took me to read all of that, and boy am I confused. I don't know a lot about your personal life except what I read in here and from where I was around you for a few times some years ago. I hate that things are messy, but I guess the good part is that you can ackowledge it now and maybe make some changes. From what I do know of Glenn and what I have read about him, it's sad because it sounds like he's really suffering from a deep depression. I know how that goes and how your self worth goes down the tubes and you just don't want to try anymore. I have been codenpendent too, well, I still am and we all are to a degree is what I have read before, but I guess it's a problem when it messes with your life. I know Glenn has had it rough in the past too. We're not all alike- I know that. I don't want to seem like I'm letting Glenn off the hook, but I do understand and I do understand the codpendency too. I would suppose the best thing you can do is offer encouragement to help his self esteem. You both hold tight to each other. My husband has to do this with me and I'm getting there. I'm my own worst enemy. Most people don't change overnight. Now that you know that he is depending on you, then I suppose some new skills on both your parts will help. I know I've read many books, but of course until he feels good about himself, then all the reading in the world aint gonna help. I need to practice what I preach. You are all in my prayers.

Love,

Lucy