To simplysakka and <user site="livejournal.com" user="wyzard_vy

[bookofmirrors]

I'm cut-tagging this for a modicum of privacy, and for harshness, and for length. I can't stop anyone from reading it, of course, but I'd suggest that if you don't already know what this is about from the subject line, this probably doesn't interest you.



I've read the posts, and talked to wyzard_vyrnahnn when he's been around. I've read the comments on both your journals. I've read the cryptic post of acid0philus that may or may not be about you two - I have no idea.

Anyway, here are my thoughts, for what they're worth.

I love you both. I don't always agree with either one of you. But I love you both, and want to see both of you happy. I do NOT hate either of you.

Both of your feelings are valid and worthy. Having these feelings isn't wrong. Some of these feelings may or may not be healthy, and I don't consider myself in a position to decide that about them right now. Nor do I intend to. In general, anything fear-based probably isn't your best route. But you've both heard that broken record before.

The whole situation is fucked up. And it's much much bigger than the credit card. But let me focus on that for a second. wyzard_vyrnahnn gets a weekly allowance (his words). When I first heard this, it set my teeth on edge. What a horrible word to use. It's the word used for children's money, set by parents. But, neither of you seemed to be upset with the situation, so I held my peace on that. However, from my limited viewpoint, I see a rather small allowance given to wyzard_vyrnahnn while I see simplysakka going on lots of trips to see OSOs. Both of you, as far as I can tell, do the food out thing. As do blckwngdorcl and I, but that's not the point I'm making. The point I'm making is that, from my perspective, it seems like there's a huge inequality of funds, wyzard_vyrnahnn's new computer notwithstanding. This puts simplysakka in the role of the person in control, the parent, if you will. wyzard_vyrnahnn reacted just as any teenager would. He rebelled. Was it wrong of him? Hell fucking yes, and even moreso that it was done in secret. But can you both see how that type of dynamic made just such a reaction possible, even probable?

As far as wyzard_vyrnahnn being addicted to gaming. Well FUCKING DUH. This comes as a surprise to NO ONE, including him. It's his escape. This has been going on for a long time, and you both claimed to be OK with the status quo on that. If you both WERE OK with it, then fine, you may have to re-evaluate that. If either, or both, of you weren't OK with it to begin with, then you/y'all need to admit that you've been lying to yourselves/each other this whole time, and move on from there.

If wyzard_vyrnahnn's addiction is gaming, simplysakka's is OSOs. They are her escape, just as surely as gaming is his. Both use them for running from themselves, and, in my personal opinion, their marriage. I make no apologies for thinking that both of you would be better off if you were alone, and didn't have the illusion of a stable marriage to hold you up, and to allow you the luxury of not facing your own issues.

I used to hold simplysakka to blame for a lot of the issues in the marriage. Everyone but her could see how her OSOs were hurting wyzard_vyrnahnn, even when it was pointed out to her. But the more I see, hear, read, and feel, the more the responsibility of this fiasco has become pretty fucking equal. wyzard_vyrnahnn is so caught up at wanting to be with her at any cost that he's willing to give up everything to keep her. Even, perhaps especially, himself. So, while he's paying lip service to her about being OK with the whole thing, he's so clearly NOT that it's painful to watch. And he expects her to read his mind and come running back to him, full of apologies for hurting him. In the meantime, he encourages her to continue with her lovers. Hey, it leaves more time for gaming, right? And she hears what he's telling her, which is, after all, what she wants to hear anyway, and flits off to her next lover, hoping to find in OSOs what she's lost in herself.

Neither one of you are happy with this situation, and moreso, neither one of you are happy with yourselves. This is a PROBLEM, and I'm not telling either of you anything new by saying so. NEITHER OF YOU has created a "monster" in the other. Any monsters that are popping their heads up were always there, waiting to be summoned.

Can your marriage be saved?

Sure. If you both want it to. I CAN guarantee you that, if you don't BOTH get therapy (couples, individual, or both), it's going to cycle around like this until it DOES end. Whether it's this time, or another time. I know finances are tight. I know blckwngdorcl and I don't make that any easier most of the time. I know liljuice is a financial strain. But, if wyzard_vyrnahnn can find the time and money to buy gaming stuff, and to game, and if simplysakka can find the time and money to be with her OSOs, wherever they are, then money can be found for therapy. Insurance covers therapy. Most employers offer free therapy services as part of their standard employee benefit plan. All therapy is as confidential as you choose to make it. There are many kink- and poly-friendly therapists out there.

If you both want it enough, it'll get better. You BOTH have to do the work, though. Time, money, and EFFORT. It's not easy. Only you can decide if it's worth it.

If you both don't want it enough, it's going to fall apart, in spite of any short-term solutions you think you can come up with on your own. You're way past that now. You've BEEN way past that for a long time. If you choose not to get professional help, you might as well cut your losses right now.

I don't apologize for the harshness of this. I still love you both, and want to see both of you happy. Whatever that entails. But the time for coddling, and keeping my mouth shut unless I'm specifically approached about it is over, for me.

I wish you both the best. You know where I live, if you want to slit my throat while I sleep or something like that. :)

Comments

[simplysakka.livejournal.com]

I don't have to tell you that this comes at a very bad time for me, when I need healing time from this, and we didn't hire you as our counselor. Perhaps you don't know the entire situation, and thus, probably aren't informed enough to make this rant, but as it *is* your journal, by all means, go ahead.

I do wish to make several things clear.

1) I have ceased any and all activity outside of my marriage. I made that clear from an earlier post. I still plan to go see Dessa and Matt in July because the plane tickets have already been purchased. They are non-refundable. But I am a firm believer in the fact that if there are problems in the marriage, the primary relationship, all secondary activity must be put on hold. (Need I not point out that even though your marriage has consistently had problems, you've continued with your OSOs?)

2) There was nothing going on in my marriage that wasn't agreed to, by both of us. If Richard has been paying lip service to me all this time, under the guise of us "agreeing" that things would be as they are, I can't be held responsible for that. But apart from that, Richard gets a weekly "allowance" (this is not MY term, but HIS) of $60.00 to do whatever he wants with. That doesn't include money we both use to eat out on, or entertain ourselves on. *I* increased that figure after things got better for us financially. He was surprised, but of course, pleased. It was ALL the money that was left over after bills were paid. You see, *I* don't get an allowance.

3) I have asked Richard on NUMEROUS occasions (and it has been documented in my journal, if you've not read) if he wanted to continue to be poly or if he wanted to be monogamous. I told him the choice was his, alone. You can ask him. He always said no, that he was happy with this arrangement, and he also indicated to me that he wanted to try and find someone on his own. So I've let it go, each time. The choice has *always* been his. I have been doing what he said he wanted to do. Again, if he has been paying lip service to me, how in the WORLD can I be held responsible?

I apologize if MY response seems harsh, but the above is NOT what I needed to hear during this trying time for me. I don't stick my nose in your marriage, EVER. I've never offered you unsoliticited advice, yet you feel compelled to do this with us. If we require this kind of microscoptic introspection on our marriage, we can pay a counselor to do it, thank you very much.

As it is, I don't understand why people can't just leave me well enough alone so I can clear my head enough to try and work this out ON MY OWN.

[simplysakka.livejournal.com]

Oh, one more thing, about a huge inequality of funds...

Are you even aware that I make OVER thirty thousand dollars a year MORE than my husband does? Since he is afforded an allowance, and I am NOT (other than the costs of going on a few small trips here and there to see my loved ones), I don't think there is such an inequality going on. It is pretty obvious to me that our livelihood is coming solely out of my paycheck.

[simplysakka.livejournal.com]

Oh yeah, one more thing I just thought of.

I handle the finances because, in the past, Richard has shown that he CANNOT. He also indicated to me on several occasions that he feels more comfortable with me handling them.

Therefore, I *have* to provide an allotment of money to him since I "do" the finances. You seem so bunged up about it being called an "allowance" but I suppose if it were him doing the finances, he would be providing it to me, so whatever you want to call it, the money is provided to him once the bills are paid, and since I pay the fucking bills, I provide him the allotment.

If Richard was in control of our finances, I can guarantee you, we'd be in a position to be right back in bankruptcy, and we aren't even allowed to for another number of years, according to our current case.

So I slave over the finances, I worry, I sweat, I handle the bill paying, so he DOESN'T HAVE TO, so he doesn't have to worry about it, so he doesn't have to concern himself with it...and THIS is the thanks, the appreciation I get???

I hope you can see my point, even just a little bit.

To Us

[wyzard-vyrnahnn.livejournal.com]

This will be short do to time and the need to get ready for work.

I said in an earlier post that it hurt because of my not being to

fullfill all of Sakka's needs. I have come to terms with this and it

is good now.

Sakka is the money winner in this marriage and so has the right

of money control. In the past I did not manage my money well so I

asked her to do this. Of course from time to time I would like to

try my hand at some thing simple like a small balance credit card to

see if i can handle it. I know it is pridefull of me to say this but i

am doing well paying this card with the money i get. I realize that not

everyone will agree with me on this but this how i feel.

Has to me being addicted to gaming. Hmmm.. at one time this was true

I do not feel it is so now. I go for long periods time without getting

on my computer and my gaming night is down to one night week. My true

addicton is more likely a spending problem. I do not just buy gaming

stuff. DVDs, Cds,and magazines are now apart of the buying. It has been

... it has been a month since I bought the stargate rpg book.

The marriage issue of running from the problems at hand.

We talk about our problems, yes I know I did not talk to her about

the card and that is the matter at hand, that issue aside, I have

said this before and I will say it again a marriage is give and take,

a state of constant flux, good and bad it changes all the time. If the

marriage will last depends on how the people in it deal with the

battles they fight with each other and against the world. Sometimes

they need outside help other times they do not. Sometimes it falls

apart sometimes it is made stronger than before.

Has you said harsh words. Sometimes they help sometimes they do not.

I wrote in another post that the stars watch to see what is going to

happen to me. I think they watch us all.

This may or may not cover the points written about but i did not

get down here soon enough for me to go into depth. I am luckly work

will be slow and I can add more if I see it is needed.

Wyzard

Wake Up People

[kittyburl.livejournal.com]

I have ONE word for all of you- Jesus!!!! Yes, this is Michelle. I read your journals sometimes to see if you are ok. I care about yall and that is not just your physical body, but your spiritual. I know that you do not believe in the same God I do, and I know Anne-Marie and Richard have turned their back on God, but I do love yall and care. These times we are in are troubling and things are coming about just as God said they would. I wish that you would seek out his word and I pray that He will reveal himself to you. I believe I read somewhere in your journal that you were raised catholic, K'la. I believ that the catholic's view of God is very distorted. I'm not saying this about all catholic churches, but most are. I don't know if you've been to a good Bible believing, Christ believing church, but if you haven't, I wish you would just at least look into it. I don't want you to think I'm condemning you or anything. We all have to stand account before God and He will judge. I want you to be right there in heaven with me though. I am very troubled over everyone there. I don't want you to be misled by the devil. He is there to rob and steal. It may look good now, but the time will come when you will call on the Father and He will not answer. It will be too late. It may be too late at any moment. You could leave this world at any time. You have the BEST guidance counselor there is in the Lord. Please consider my plea. Again, Anne-Marie, I am sorry for the way I acted on the phone and in the letter I wrote. I was very mad about what was revealed to me and that Lee could be lieing. I wish not to discuss that matter any further with him, or you, if I ever talk with you again. May God bless all of you and I know that if you get yourselves right with the Lord and put your focus there, then you will not focus on this other stuff. I know there are people that you see and you wonder what happened to them and why it didn't work out because they seemed to be focused on the Lord, but I say that if both of them were in the Word, then God will provide and will take away these obscessions.

[bookofmirrors.livejournal.com]

The stuff I said WAS harsh, and it didn't come at a good time. I don't think there's ever a good time to say harsh things. I also think the typical comments you get in LJ, while being feel-good and squishy, do nothing to give you any insight on the situation. I got sick of that, and I got sick of so many people responding who had so little first-hand knowledge of the situation.

I'm not saying you're to be held responsible for what I consider to be the lip-service you've been given. I'm just pointing out that everything that I see (and feel) points to it being just that - lip service. For all the times you've asked, and he's answered, the energy of it has never rung true, ever. You're right, it's not your responsibility.

I'm aware of the discrepency in your incomes. I was not aware you didn't have an allowance, as he does. (Hence, my words, "from my limited viewpoint".) What I was aware of was that I've seen him answer to you for his spending (the credit card notwithstanding), and that I see you spending a lot more money than he does. Again, from my limited perspective. Of course you're the one paying the huge majority, if not all, of the bills. No one questions that. And I clearly said it was wrong of him to go behind your back. But I don't buy the whole working and slaving thing. There is a kernel of truth in it, to be sure, but there are a lot of control issues in that statement. Whether or not either or both of you feel the control is necessary is, in the end, irrelevant to the dynamic it creates.

I do see your points. I've always seen them. Seeing quite clearly where you come from, however, still doesn't mean that I can overlook what's going on. Bad timing? Perhaps. Sticking my nose in? Certainly. But I think my greatest crime is that I didn't speak up sooner, and continued to watch the cycle happen, over and over again. I apologize for that, to both of you.

Re: To Us

[bookofmirrors.livejournal.com]

I love you dearly, hon. I read your words, and your energy is soooooo completely the polar opposite of what you say. To put it nicely, you're fooling yourself. You're so obviously not OK with what's going on that it's painful to watch. I'm sure you are/were doing well with the credit card, regardless of the circumstances under which it was gotten. Again, as I said above, there are control issues with the money.

Certainly, marriage has its ups and downs, and its struggles. But until you're honest with yourself, and with your wife, I can't see it getting any better.

Re: Wake Up People

[bookofmirrors.livejournal.com]

Great to see you have an LJ! :)

I can't speak for the spiritual development of my roommates, other than to tell you that I know they haven't turned their backs on god. It may be, perhaps, that you are mistaking their views of god, which are different than yours, are the same as turning their backs on the god you believe in.

I understand that Christianity gives many people a great deal of comfort. The "religions of the book", as they are commonly called (Christianity, Islam, Judaism) tend to be very comforting religions. This is especially so of Christianity, with its focus on a savior who will wash away all of one's sins. Being able to hand everything over to god is a very reassuring thing.

I was raised Christian (not Catholic, but Lutheran), and have studied that path both while I was in it, and since I have chosen another path. In fact, most pagans, in general, tend to know more about the Christian faith than your average Christian, because our studies aren't limited by dogma, nor is it considered sacrilege for us to delve deep into the mysteries. Christians are discouraged from doing this, because the obvious contradictions found in Christian writings tend to dismay those who find it, and they lose their faith in Christianity. Few, however, lose their love and admiration of Jesus. Most pagans, in fact, revere Jesus; they just don't see him, or anyone else, as a path to salvation.

Pagans tend to see trials such as the one happening here as life lessons, tests of Self, rather than tests of faith. I don't feel abandoned by god, as I see him/her/it/me. I see the touch of the Divine in everything I do, and in everyone I encounter. Including the people I live with, and including this situation.

At any rate, I understand where you're coming from, and you should know that I didn't set aside Christianity without thought. I know that path, and I know it well. And I know it's not the path for me. Each person must choose their own path, and if Christianity is the path that speaks to your heart, then follow your heart, always.

Re: To Us

[wyzard-vyrnahnn.livejournal.com]

Hmm.... energy. There is more going on than you know and I am dealing

with it. I am not fooling myself. I can and do see it changing from

day to day. It is how we decide to deal with our struggles that will

or will not work for someone else and they may or may see this.

Wyzard

Re: To Us

[bookofmirrors.livejournal.com]

Understood.

I Got Littlebunee's Deleted Post

[kittyburl.livejournal.com]

K'la, I appreciate your kindness in your words. I want Littlebunnee to know that I was not saying that God was harsh. He is loving and will welcome you back with open arms if you choose to come back and follow Him. He will, however, say He never knew you if you don't have a personal relationship with Him and are not trying to follow His ways. She needs to really look into the scriptures. If we are purposefully going against the Will of God, then we will not be granted grace. Really read into your Bible Littlebunnee. Read what it says about those who purposefully go against God. It says it over and over that they will not inherit the Kingdom of God. I am not judging any of you. I just encourage you to read the Word. I am telling you what God's Word says. If you think that I'm going against your lifestyle, it's not for me to judge, but the scriptures. I don't know you. I definately don't hate you. I want the best for everyone. I think if you call yourself a Christian, then you shouldn't kid yourself into thinking that you are just because you believe in God. Even Satan and the demons believe in God. You have to take up the cross daily and try to live by God's instructions. I know we are not perfect and we all sin, but to purposefully sin is another subject. Purposefully sinning is being out of the Will of God, and if we do not come back and turn ourselves away, He will have nothing to do with us and we will be cast into hell. It's all in the Bible. Don't just read parts of it. I do suggest for faster reading that you focus on the New Testament. We are under a New now. We have been granted grace, but we are still to uphold the laws of the Bible. We will not lose our salvation if we follow Jesus, but if we purposefully turn our backs on God and say I don't want to have anything else to to with you and I will purposefully live my life like I want, then we will get the same as those who never trusted in the Lord. Anyway, I'm sorry about writing so much in your journal K'la. It bothers me when I see people twist the Words of God to make it fit how they want it to fit so they can go on justifying what they do. I believe allot of "so called" Christians are going to have a rude awakening when Jesus comes back. He came first as the Lamb, but he will come back as the Lion and He will rule with a sword.

Re: I Got Littlebunee's Deleted Post

[bookofmirrors.livejournal.com]

Actually, I sort of enjoy this sort of debate, so I don't mind it being a part of my LiveJournal. However, I want to make it clear that, at this point, for me, this has become a discussion strictly over religion/belief systems, and no longer has any bearing on the original post.

I don't know why littlebuhnee deleted her post. Certainly, it was harsher than mine, but I have no problem with people speaking their minds. Such is the nature of a public forum like this. I certainly invite her to re-post it. That is the danger of making a comment and deleting it. By the time you delete it, LJ has already sent it out via email to those who have email set to deliver comments, as apparently both of us do.

The reason that it's so difficult for pagans and fundamentalist Christians (which seems to be the path you follow) to see eye-to-eye is because we have such different viewpoints on life. It's ENTIRELY too long to post here, but click here for one of the best pieces I've ever seen to help Christians understand the pagan mindset. I look forward to hearing your response.

Re: Wake Up People

[elorie.livejournal.com]

Right, because of course we all know Christians never have problems in their marriages, or have other forms of real life happen to them. If anything bad or even ordinarily troublesome happens to you, it MUST be because you aren't right with God. Nice way to hurt people who are already having problems by trying to make them feel bad.

I just want you to stop and contemplate the fact that it's exactly this kind of idiotic attitude that drove me away from Christianity. Not the words of Christ, but Christians like you. And no, "I'm just trying to help" is not a good enough excuse. Anyone can say that. This is not really about you trying to help anyone, or give any kind of loving or enlightening message. It's just about ego, your ego, and your need to believe that the path you have chosen is really as good as you want everyone to think it is.

You know why Pagans don't proselytize? Because we don't have anything to prove. Anyone who feels they have to brow-beat someone else into following a particular path is showing that they aren't confident enough that what they are doing can stand on its own.

Life is not something that has simple answers. Every tragic or painful thing that happens is not somebody's fault. I think you have no idea how much harm your words and your attitude cause in the world. At least, I hope you don't, and it's just wrong-headedness rather than deliberate spite.

At any rate, my path has given me what Christianity never did and never could: real contentment, and a genuine, profound way to engage with life. I don't believe that a just or sane God would punish people for seeking the truth, and reward them for the kind of covertly vindictive pious trash you are spouting. And I don't think that every Christian is spiteful and wrong-headed. Just your type.

[elorie.livejournal.com]

As long as I'm on a tear of telling everyone what I think...

You know I love you darlin' and this particular situation is different in that it arguably concerns your living situation AND there really is (I am assuming) a problem here.

However, I have noticed that you are ordinarily such a carefree, non-judgemental, whatever works for you person...right up until the issue of how another woman deals with the internal emotional and financial workings of her relationship comes up, and then you will come out with some startlingly harsh and critical judgements about things that a) are not your business and b) you are not in a position to know the full story of.

And it always, no matter what the configuration of the situation is, seems to be about the woman treating her man badly and controlling him.

Like I said, this situation is a bit different. But you have expressed opinions about my relationship with fornorald that were way, way out of line, and also very far afield from the reality of the situation, even any reasonably construed reality. They were however only in casual conversation. I can sympathize with the frustration of having a front-row seat to someone else's wrangle; on the other hand, I can tell you that if you put a declaration of MY personal business and a dissection of my relationship up in your journal for everyone else to read, caveat or not, I'd be royally pissed.

Two thoughts, my love: One, boundaries exist for a reason, and it's a better and more important reason than restricting anyone's freedom. Two, you seem to have a pattern in your head of how male/female relationships work that you go around projecting on other people, and I dare say on your own relationship as well (I don't know because I'm not part of it, but it's a fair guess). That pattern might bear some examination on your part.

with love,

Motormouth

I'm impressed...

[waterfall-sh.livejournal.com]

K'La:

I am very impressed. Your points are logical, well-thought-out, appropriate, and accurate. In fact, you have said many of the same things that I have wanted to say off and on for a very long time. You should be proud of your courage to say the things that are necessary and important to hear to the people you care about. It shows an immediate level of true friendship that not many people are capable of.

Things may become extremely difficult for you as a result of speaking your mind and telling the truth (they often do), but I, for one, support and even applaud you for staying true to your ethics, morals, beliefs, and calling.

Good job!

[bookofmirrors.livejournal.com]

The format of my rant was actually the subject of one of simplysakka's later posts, where she expressed her anger that I had expressed my opinion in such a public venue, and stirred up the responses of kittyburl, who was the reason she made her LJ friends only to begin with. I had honestly forgotten at the time that she had made her LJ friends only, and I'd actually forgotten about kittyburl as well. At any rate, I did apologize for the public venue.

I don't apologize for my words, though. For several reasons. I see what I see, and I feel what I feel. I've had these theories for a long time, and held my tongue, perhaps too long, waiting for my theories to be proven wrong, hoping that what I saw wasn't as real as it felt. Nothing that has happened in the time I've known my roommates has proven me wrong.

Certainly, my issues with females in general tend to make women out to be the "bad guy" in any relationship. As I mentioned above, I originally thought that about this situation. But long observation has proven that they are both equally responsible for the issues in their relationship. I mentioned this, too.

To some extent, strangely enough, there is a sense of "Do Unto Others...." in my post. As I mentioned in a post a long time ago, I relate strongly to simplysakka. Perhaps too strongly. I can predict what she's going to do, and even how she's going to explain herself regarding it with a pretty startling accuracy. This is because I've been the person she is. I know the mindset, I know the patterns - because I've lived them. I've looked pretty closely to make sure this isn't projection on my part. In some minor aspects, it has been, but I've recognized those times, and dealt with them accordingly.

At the time my personality matched hers, I was with a group of friends who, either by lack of knowledge/wisdom, or lack of will, didn't call me on any of the things I was doing. It's been over 10 years, and I've only recently been able to see clearly what my issues were then. I definitely have something akin to countertransference when it comes to simplysakka. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, if I recognize it.

But I have to wonder... if someone had confronted me back then, would things have been better for me? Would I have understood things better, moved on with my life earlier, gone down the road of feeling that much better about myself sooner?

I have no idea. I have no experience in that area to be able to determine it. My frame of mind back then was so different that I think perhaps my defenses would have justified any action I was taking, any thought process I was having. All the time those same things were ruining my life. As I see them ruining simplysakka's life.

So, sure, by saying all the things I said, I'm retroactively trying to help the Self I was back then. But I'm also trying to help her. You're right, most of the time when I've had discussions about you with your relationships, I've been missing a piece of the puzzle, and you providing it tends to give me a better perspective on the situation. I always use a caveat regarding my limited ability to see everything, and invite people to fill me in on information I'm missing. Sometimes things like that change my thoughts, sometimes they don't.

Not sure what else to say. I'll have blckwngdorcl look this over, too, so he can help me determine if there are patterns in our relationship that we're not happy with. Everyone has their own patterns, and I think everyone kinda has a sense of, "Well, this worked for me, you might consider trying it to see if it works for you." Whether I'm going beyond that I suppose has yet to be determined.

Re: I'm impressed...

[bookofmirrors.livejournal.com]

Thanks, sweetie. It's been a bumpy road. But, in the end, I had to finally stop biting my tongue. It's cleared a lot of air, and in that alone, it's been worth it.

DeBunking Some Lies

[monarchprime.livejournal.com]

"I can't stop anyone from reading it"

This is a direct quote and a complete lie. You can stop anyone from reading it by simply not posting it to the public. Why couldn't this have been an email?

You're a dangerous friend to have because not only do you endorse a "no boundary" policy in your own life, you apparently decide for other people what their boundaries should be.

If you ever wonder why I have limited by involvement with you (not withstanding the good chat we had last night), remember this post.

[elorie.livejournal.com]

I'd be a big ol' hypocrite if I didn't sympathize with that urge to Say Something. Sometimes, it is the thing to do. Speaking the truth as you see it is very powerful.

On the other hand (and you knew I was going to say that) like all power it needs some limits. One being the boundaries that I mentioned. Another being reciprocity...which you are generally pretty good about, just mentioning it.

[simplysakka.livejournal.com]

I can sympathize with the frustration of having a front-row seat to someone else's wrangle; on the other hand, I can tell you that if you put a declaration of MY personal business and a dissection of my relationship up in your journal for everyone else to read, caveat or not, I'd be royally pissed.

...One, boundaries exist for a reason, and it's a better and more important reason than restricting anyone's freedom. Two, you seem to have a pattern in your head of how male/female relationships work that you go around projecting on other people... That pattern might bear some examination on your part.

I thank you for your validation. I reiterate, this is OUR business, open for discussion only BY us. I thank you for saying what I've been thinking but was unable apparently to put it as eloquently as you have.

Re: DeBunking Some Lies

[simplysakka.livejournal.com]

You can stop anyone from reading it by simply not posting it to the public. Why couldn't this have been an email?

...you apparently decide for other people what their boundaries should be.

I agree, and I appreciate the validation of my feelings. Even so, this post continues to remain open, and mine and my husband's business is now fodder for the entire world to discuss. An apology is one thing, but it does not remedy the fact that our private business has been splashed all over the Internet for everyone to see.

A dangerous friend; an even more dangerous roommate. But dangerous or not, bookofmirrors *is* a good roommate, and appropriate to us, at least in the "living" situation. But this post is and continues to be a breach of mine and my husband's privacy, and I've not changed my mind one iota since I posted the following:

My journal is friends-only. This is where I post my innermost thoughts, my private moments, and my joy as well as angst about certain situations going on in my life.

I made this journal friends-only after being attacked by an old friend who...disagrees with our lifestyle.

bookofmirrors, I now call you on posting mine and my husband's private business publicly in your journal, which is not only viewable to the WORLD, but also once again drew fire from (said friend).

Most of the people I've spoken with regarding this agree with me. Here is an excerpt of a comment made by one of my friends, whom I'm allowing to remain anonymous:

Yes, I saw what (she) wrote, and was shocked. Regardless of what her feelings are, if she felt that she had to voice them, they should have been brought to you and Richard privately. It's one thing for him to write out an explanation and expound on his feeling of what's going on, but it is entirely different for a third party to take your personal life and expound on why s/he thinks your marriage is fucked up in a public forum. It's beyond rude.

My thoughts exactly. It is one thing for my husband and I to discuss this openly in our journals (my journal is friends-only, and his posts have been cryptic enough to keep "noses" wondering), and it is entirely something else for someone who is "close to us" and "loves us" and "has our best interest at heart" to rip this open for the entire world to see... Which is the MAIN reason I took my journal to friends-only in the FIRST place.

I know this may seem insane for me to say this, but I believe it in my heart, so I am going to say it: Respect my fucking privacy. As of March of this year, when I made my journal friends-only, what I say in my journal needs to remain in my journal. If you want to comment on it, comment to my posts, and the comments will be friends-only, just like the post. But it is a huge breach of boundaries to go spilling my private affairs publicly in your journal.

Yes, I am damned angry over this. I've told you verbally, as well. But I need to air my thoughts, and I've done so.

Once again, I thank you for your validation of my point.

Re: DeBunking Some Lies

[kittyburl.livejournal.com]

Did I not tell you this same mess over a letter Anne-Marie, but I'm not a friend like Bookofmirrors is because I mention the Bible, or maybe I told you something you needed to hear. Anne-Marie let's you just hear her side of the story. If you didn't want your "crap" all over the place, then you shouldn't write them to begin with. Because I was against your lifestyle you chose to make your journal private. I didn't post in it or anywhere else. I spoke to you. When I read the lies you told on my husband, that is what ticked me off. Admit it, that's why you don't want me to read it. Your afraid somebody might tell you the truth and you'll have to stop doing what you're doing. Was I worried about you getting AIDS? YES, Was I worried about your emotional state? YES. I told you what you didn't want to hear and then, you shut me out. All of you seem to get ticked when it goes against your "so-called" lifestyle. Can you spout your paganistic views around? Yes. Go ahead people and believe and take up for Anne-Marie. She loves that. She loves being the victim and she loves to lie. She's a BRAT is what she is. You put your crap out there and everyone was available to see it. Just like an open book. I'm sure K'la is not saying something that she wouldn't have said in your journal, but little old me wouldn't be able to read it. Are you afraid your lies are going to catch up with you and people will see how you really are. I sent you E-MAIL, you didn't like it and you automatically turned against me. Afraid your family is going to find out? Richard's family? Why don't you just let the whole world know if you're so proud of what you're doing? It wasn't for me to tell any of your family. I had no intentions of getting in your mess either after all that happened. I apoligised in private, but you pushed me away for some reason. I would have looked at your journal and would have prayed for you. I would have maybe e-mailed you or called you, but you got scared of me for some reason. If you are happy with yourself and your situation, then what can I do? We would have probably came and seen Richard or invited him down, but you are putting a stop to it for some reason. Do you think we will persaude him to leave you? He can do what he pleases. You can do what you please as long as it doesn't involve telling lies on my husband. He was very hurt and you almost destroyed our marriage. Do people know that? Lee swore to me on our salvation that it was not true. What can you say for that? How can I not believe that? I think you have been confused by his words and I think you were so drunk in New Orleans that you don't know what happened. I told Lee that he could tell me the truth and we really went over this. He doesn't understand why you would lie? I think you are mistaken of his feelings for you too. He loves you as a friend, that's all. I love you as a person, but I honestly don't know if I could call us friends after all of this. I wish that you would just be honest and talk with me. I am not trying to shame you out of your lifestyle. I have been trying to show you God's Word. You were a Sunday school teacher a couple of years ago. What happened? By the way, where is your brother? I'd like to know what happened to the people you loved and that "really" loved you? Did you drive him away too because he told the truth? You need to talk to me. You need to clear the air with me and Lee. He was just so lost and still is that everyone there has seemed to turn their back on us. Everyone took him off their list and just kicked him out. You wouldn't have had anything to do with that would you? Lee has said that noone up there would rock the boat just to keep you satisfied. I'm glad K'la rocked the boat. The girl loves yall and so do we. I won't put up with you purposefully hurting us though. You and Lee were friends for a long time, as well as Richard. Richard has not even bothered to "rock the boat" and call Lee. It's not right. If you're going to hold a grudge forever, then it's you that will lose out.

Re: DeBunking Some Lies

[kittyburl.livejournal.com]

Thank you so much Anne-Marie for telling us you don't want to be our friends anymore because we're Christians. That's real friendship there. I am very HURT.

Re: DeBunking Some Lies

[octoberdreaming.livejournal.com]

Well, you're not acting very "Christian" at the moment, are you?

As far as I understood, Sakka posted a very nice response (http://www.livejournal.com/users/kittyburl/1892.html?thread=356#t356) to you in your PUBLIC journal. And yet here you are again, lambasting her in public, even after she tried to give you closure on whatever issues you two are having. And I see you are bringing up once again something from the past that in a previous comment you said you were going to never bring up again.

I quote: I wish not to discuss that matter any further with him, or you, if I ever talk with you again.

But you're bringing it up again, aren't you? You seem more concerned with airing your own dirty laundry and your "religious right" views than focusing on the point of this post.

I naturally can't speak for Sakka, but here's my opinion on the matter of your friendship with her. If it were me, I'd decline your friendship NOT because you are Christian, but because *you don't seem to understand the concept of friendship at all*.

Go ahead people and believe and take up for Anne-Marie. She loves that. She loves being the victim and she loves to lie. She's a BRAT is what she is.

Name-calling and vituperative statements are not very Christian, are they now? No, I didn't think so. And not very friendly, are they? Nope, not at all. I don't believe I saw Sakka calling you names. You are acting very gracelessly, and you seriously need to re-evaluate your behavior if you want to call yourself a Christian. Jesus would never have treated Sakka the way you have in these posts. Think about it.

And it seems to me that you are more bent out of shape about the fact that she doesn't want to maintain a close relationship with you than anything else. I can't say as I blame her - your actions are not in any way endearing, nor are they the actions of a friend.

I think you need to get your head out of the sand and do some serious soul-searching. You are obviously not who you think you are. You need to realize that despite what your religious organization has misled you to believe, you don't have all the answers - in fact, I personally don't think you have any, but that's just my opinion based on limited observation of your words and habits. You haven't exactly made a good showing for yourself or your religion. I certainly don't know what ever gave you the idea that you are qualified to dispense spiritual advice, but you need to get that idea out of your head right away, because all you are doing is causing more harm.

"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you." Matthew 7:1-2.

From what you have written here, I'd say you have a loooong way to go before you measure up to your own standards of judgement. And further more, you need to wise up to the fact that just because you abide by a certain system of belief others are obligated to do the same. By the tenents of your own faith, God gave all humankind free will to choose how they will live their lives. It is not for you to say how people should live, or what God they should worship (if any), or how they should conduct their spiritual lives. You seem to be spending a lot of time worrying about how other people behave and not enough time on how your own behavior falls short of your belief system. Not nearly enough.

---Continued----

Re: DeBunking Some Lies

[octoberdreaming.livejournal.com]

And finally, if all of that doesn't make any dent in your stubborn disbelief that people should be allowed their individual rights without censure, allow me to quote the Constitution of the United States, which (thank the gods and goddesses and all the deities in mythology) is still the Supreme Law of Our Country, over and above the Bible or any other document.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech..."

You should be very, very, very grateful that you have the freedom to practice your beliefs in any way you see fit. Be grateful, and allow others to live by their own beliefs in peace, whether you agree with them or not. Indeed, you have NO RIGHT to imply that a person is wrong for practicing whatever religion he or she sees fit. As the law of our nation permits everyone to live and believe as they wish, so long as it does not trespass on the free will of others, you can have nothing to say about how people live their lives, at least nothing that carries any weight.

And as for freedom of speech - be grateful that you can say whatever best pleases you. Be grateful that you have the right to defend your faith without going in fear of your life. Be grateful. And stop trying to imply that these rights are selective only to those people with whom you agree.

End.

Re: DeBunking Some Lies

[bookofmirrors.livejournal.com]

That is the most hypocritical thing I've ever heard you say, considering your post to blckwngdorcl several months ago. Explain to me how it's different, please.

What I wrote was the truth with the understanding that I choose not to make private posts. I didn't send it in an email because this whole thing was already being hashed out over LiveJournal, and since I had forgotten simplysakka had made her journal friends-only, I thought it was already out there for the world to see.

Re: DeBunking Some Lies

[monarchprime.livejournal.com]

I'm taking this discussion to private email. Do the same.

Re: DeBunking Some Lies

[simplysakka.livejournal.com]

I wish I'd had the same courtesy.

Re: DeBunking Some Lies

[simplysakka.livejournal.com]

What I wrote was the truth with the understanding that I choose not to make private posts.

No, what you wrote was the "truth according to K'La" which you've already attested to here. You even said, several times, "from my limited viewpoint." Limited enough, in my opinion, not to make these kinds of pointed and harsh convictions. And, limited or not, this is *still* OUR private business.

[profundis.livejournal.com]

Sugar...why do you need this audience to make this point?

Couldn't this have been said to your roomies in person?

How is this anyone elses business?

I'm really perplexed at this choice.

Re: I Got Littlebunee's Deleted Post

[littlebuhnee.livejournal.com]

I don't know why littlebuhnee deleted her post.

I did it out of respect for you. Despite what Ms. Christianity thinks she knows, I live under the basic tenants of Life. Like , "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you". I would not approve of seeing someone attack one of my friends in my journal (especially someone I didn't even know well), and therefore I didn't think it appropriate for me to do so, either. But my message was received (and wildly missed in another bout of religious frenzy, as was expected), so my goal has been achieved.

Re: I Got Littlebunee's Deleted Post

[kittyburl.livejournal.com]

In reply to that girl up top there Elorie. She didn't understand what I was saying. I did not say that this was brought on by what someone was doing or that God was punishing them. She took it wrong. I know good and well that everyone has problems, but we can make our problems worse by going down a road that inhibits this stuff. I was only saying that God's Word can help. It's amzing how people don't understand what someone means on these things. I guess we all just jump and say, "Oh this is what they're saying". Maybe I didn't explain it good enough. Well, I see that I have made a mess here. I will go. I'm sorry. I have been hurt by people too. I am a person too. I try to be nice to everyone and I don't wish any bad on anybody. I did get mad when everyone was attacking me and I guess I see how it feels by the way I was saying things to Anne-Marie. I didn't want to attack her and not all of this was towards her, but she has some people that she knows that didn't look at my side really either. I do believe in a God that is fair and just, but He did clear out the temple when they were making a mockery out of everything. I believe if you are going to follow the Bible, then you should follow all of it and not just parts. This takes a mind of understanding also. You have to know where you came from and what has happened throughout the Bible history to really do this. Some people live by the Old Testament ways, but you have to read on and see what transpires and where we are now. Jesus was humble and sweet, but he was just too. Some people see him as weak, but He was not. I do challenge those who have a desire to be a Christian to seek out God's Word and pray and ask Him to give you understanding. I have to ask Him to show me what He wants to show me daily. I believe He showed me through this that I need Him more and more and that I was pushy in what I said. My reasons were from my heart, but I went out about it the wrong way I guess. I have cried so much about this. I don't want to hurt anybody. I feel like I have let God down and that I have let you all down by putting my feelings into it. In the Bible, Christ says He is the only way; and I just wanted you to see that so much. I believe with all my heart what the Bible says about God's judgement and about those who choose to go the way of the world and my heart and head were screaming please Lord show them- I don't want them to be in fire everlasting.

John 12

Jesus Predicts His Death

20 Now there were some Greeks among those who went up to worship at the Feast. 21 They came to Philip, who was from Bethsaida in Galilee, with a request. "Sir," they said, "we would like to see Jesus." 22 Philip went to tell Andrew; Andrew and Philip in turn told Jesus.
23 Jesus replied, "The hour has come for the Son of Man to be glorified. 24 I tell you the truth, unless a kernel of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains only a single seed. But if it dies, it produces many seeds. 25 The man who loves his life will lose it, while the man who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life. 26 Whoever serves me must follow me; and where I am, my servant also will be. My Father will honor the one who serves me.
27 "Now my heart is troubled, and what shall I say? 'Father, save me from this hour'? No, it was for this very reason I came to this hour. 28 Father, glorify your name!"
29 Then a voice came from heaven, "I have glorified it, and will glorify it again." The crowd that was there and heard it said it had thundered; others said an angel had spoken to him.
30 Jesus said, "This voice was for your benefit, not mine. 31 Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out. 32 But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself." 33 He said this to show the kind of death he was going to die.

Continued

[kittyburl.livejournal.com]

WOULDN'T ALL FIT.

cont.

34 The crowd spoke up, "We have heard from the Law that the Christ[6] will remain forever, so how can you say, 'The Son of Man must be lifted up'? Who is this 'Son of Man'?"
35 Then Jesus told them, "You are going to have the light just a little while longer. Walk while you have the light, before darkness overtakes you. The man who walks in the dark does not know where he is going. 36 Put your trust in the light while you have it, so that you may become sons of light." When he had finished speaking, Jesus left and hid himself from them.


The Jews Continue in Their Unbelief

37 Even after Jesus had done all these miraculous signs in their presence, they still would not believe in him. 38 This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet:
"Lord, who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?"[7]
39 For this reason they could not believe, because, as Isaiah says elsewhere:
40 "He has blinded their eyes
and deadened their hearts,
so they can neither see with their eyes,
nor understand with their hearts,
nor turn--and I would heal them."[8] 41 Isaiah said this because he saw Jesus' glory and spoke about him.
42 Yet at the same time many even among the leaders believed in him. But because of the Pharisees they would not confess their faith for fear they would be put out of the synagogue; 43 for they loved praise from men more than praise from God.
44 Then Jesus cried out, "When a man believes in me, he does not believe in me only, but in the one who sent me. 45 When he looks at me, he sees the one who sent me. 46 I have come into the world as a light, so that no one who believes in me should stay in darkness.
47 "As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it. 48 There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day.

Ezekiel 3

Warning to Israel
16 At the end of seven days the word of the LORD came to me: 17 "Son of man, I have made you a watchman for the house of Israel; so hear the word I speak and give them warning from me. 18 When I say to a wicked man, 'You will surely die,' and you do not warn him or speak out to dissuade him from his evil ways in order to save his life, that wicked man will die for [1] his sin, and I will hold you accountable for his blood. 19 But if you do warn the wicked man and he does not turn from his wickedness or from his evil ways, he will die for his sin; but you will have saved yourself.
20 "Again, when a righteous man turns from his righteousness and does evil, and I put a stumbling block before him, he will die. Since you did not warn him, he will die for his sin. The righteous things he did will not be remembered, and I will hold you accountable for his blood. 21 But if you do warn the righteous man not to sin and he does not sin, he will surely live because he took warning, and you will have saved yourself."

I read this passage after I had made my first two posts and I felt like God was showing me that I had done right, even though maybe I was a little harsh and some of you thought I was judging.

I didn't think I was judging anyone, but if you believed I was, then that's what matters and I am sorry. I just wanted you to know God's Word.
If anyone needs help or wants a Bible and wants somone to talk to about this, please let me know. I will get my pastor's advice and we can go through the scriptures together you and I, or if you want he would be glad to talk with you. He is a very nice person and believes we should love everyone and show them Christ through our lives, which I didn't do a good job at. My e-mail is michelle@i4get.com. You can also find Bibles on line too. Just go to a search engine and type in Bible or Holy Bible. I got this from a New International Version (NIV). It is a little easier to understand.

Note:

[kittyburl.livejournal.com]

I would like to note that the wickedness spoken here is not just stealing or murdering and things like that, but idolatry, believing and following other gods and all sorts. We are to try to live our life like Jesus, even though we never can, but we must strive to. As you know, if you have been a Christian, it's grace by which we are saved, but we are not to continue in the sin nature on purpose, or we will be cut off. I'm not sure which book of the Bible it's in, but it's in there. It may be Romans or Hebrews. I'm not sure. I know it's in the New Testament and it's not the four gospels. I used to believe once saved-always saved, but since reading the scriptures more and more I do not believe this. We can turn our backs on God and follow after other gods and live outside of God's will and will be lost. This is just how I have interpreted the scriptures. Anyway, God Bless you all.

Re: Note:

[octoberdreaming.livejournal.com]

The passage you want is Romans 6:1-23.

If you believe in your faith, then that is a good thing. Everyone has that right, to believe in whatever they wish, so long as it does not harm others. However, you do need to realize that while, to you, the bible is a divine word, not everyone thinks of it that way.

I personally think the Old Testament is a marvelous work of mythology and stories. The New Testament is interesting as a philosophy. But I don't believe it is divinely inspired, and while my personal philosophy parallels it in many ways, I will not ever follow this collection of tales and letters any more than I would follow the koran or the baghavad gita or any other supposedly holy writing (the bible isn't the only one out there, you know - you might try reading some of the other "holy books" - they might provide you with a deeper and more fulfilling insight).

It is kind of you to share your viewpoints, but understand that there are those of us who simply do not believe in a deity, or who do not click to the christian notion of god or deification. Don't make the assumption that just because we don't embrace Christianity that we are ignorant about it - I knew exactly where to find the passage you were fishing around in your memory for, and I could probably find any other one that you asked for.

Now, I realize that you weren't addressing ME directly, but I feel that it needs to be pointed out to you that the warnings of the bible against not following "the lord" mean nothing to people who simply do not accept the bible as holy writ. This is something that many Christians don't consider when trying futilely to get others to listen to them. If the bible means nothing to me, then saying that god is going to toss me into a pit of fire if I don't "change my ways" is not going to strike fear and terror into my heart. The reason I respond to your posts is out of my own sense of justice. Thomas Jefferson said, "A little revolution is a good thing." Human philosophy benefits and grows from debate, discussion, and dissent.

I'm far more afraid of living an empty life, wasted by never helping humankind, never living up to my full potential as an artist, never helping those in need or never standing up for injustice in this world than I am afraid of a pit of fire and brimstone.

Kitty, we have such a short time on this earth to live. Isn't it better to spend it with the focus of helping others in ways that don't involve trying to force them into a particular philosophy? Isn't it better to love and rejoice in our neighbors as fellow human beings than as followers of one particular religion or another? Today, instead of worrying which of your friends are going to hell, spend that time doing something constructive for humankind, like donating to a food bank or taking blankets to the homeless or reading about the latest earthquake in Iran and collecting aid addresses. Won't this be personally more fulfilling than trying to convince people of a religious philosophy that they simply don't need and don't see the point in needing?

You know, Jesus never once went up to someone and throttled them and said, "CHANGE!" He waited for them to come and ASK HIM about his way of life. The only people he intervened with were the Pharisees, who did NOT allow the common people to worship in the way that they were able. For the others, he waited until the Rich Man approached him. He waited until his apostles asked him. He didn't force Peter to leave his fishing boat - all he said was "Follow Me", and it was up to Peter to follow. Jesus walked off. He didn't go back and scream at Peter, "You're going to hell if you don't follow me!"

If you want to be a Christian, then try very hard to act like Christ. He loved people as they were, and many saw in his quiet patience something to envy, something to ask about, and something to follow. There is something to be said for that. He certainly never cursed or called anyone a BRAT simply because they didn't live up to a certain standard.

---Continued---

Re: Note:

[octoberdreaming.livejournal.com]

---Continued From Above----

Wouldn't it better to learn to understand other people's philosophies and ways of life? I guarantee that you will get a better response by asking them to tell you why they live as they do than if you tell them why it is "wrong". (It's not wrong, by the way, when one is judging by human, not Christian, standards - something to think about. Morality is relative.) Be courteous, don't attack others' way of life, and they will certainly extend you the same courtesy and will maybe ask you about yours in return. Instead of trying to convert the world to christianity, try to focus on what good you can do on this earth, both as a christian and a human being. I think you will find that kind of action much more fulfilling and far less frustrating than trying to convince people of something that never wanted or asked for.

[simplysakka.livejournal.com]

Again, I so thank you for this validation, and the reiteration of my point, which has apparently, so far, not made a bit of difference to the poster here.

YES, this is mine and my husband's business. YES, bookofmirrors is a party to *some* of our business, because we are roommates, and even moreso, friends.

NO, this does NOT give her the right to put our business out there for everyone and their brother to read and also put us in a position to be attacked by someone whom I closed my journal and made it friends-only SPECIFICALLY to avoid.

As littlebuhnee said earlier in her comment, I am also amazed that bookofmirrors has continued to allow this post to remain open and has allowed someone to openly attack "a friend" in the venue of her journal.

All of this really causes me to question whether or not we are still truly friends. And as you can see here, most of HER friends (as well as mine) have totally questioned her motives and decision to do this to us.

If I'd posted something in my journal (which, again, is friends-only but regardless) about someone who I considered a friend, and that person approached me and said even the diminuitive, "This is making me feel badly," then I would remove the post, or make it private. Immediately.

I have made it clear that not only does this make me feel "badly," I am beyond incensed over it. Yet, she continues to allow it to remain open. For what reasons? Open discussion (at our expense)? This religious debate that seems to have taken off (which, oddly enough, defends us)? Regardless, at any time someone who I wish to not be privy to this information could open this post and read it.

I am *BEYOND* amazed that a so-called "friend" (much less someone that I am sharing a home with) is doing this to us. *shakes head*

And once again, thank you for your validation of my viewpoint. Perhaps she will finally see what all this is doing and the damage that it has *already* caused. My marriage is WELL on the mend. This friendship, however, may require further debate.

Re: DeBunking Some Lies

[bookofmirrors.livejournal.com]

I'm sorry, I must not have written that clearly. I was responding to his comment about me saying that I can't prevent other people from reading it. Because of the medium I chose to post it in, it was true that I couldn't prevent others from reading it. He was speaking of the more absolute truth that, had I communicated this information differently, I could have prevented others from reading it.

It was never my intention to imply that the content of what I wrote was Truth.

Re: DeBunking Some Lies

[isarma.livejournal.com]

I'm with K'La on this one. When I read your post to blckwngdorcl, I thought it was fabulous and honest and I applauded that. I, myself, would've done it in person and not on LJ, but that's me. I don't see how what K'La's doing here is any different, except maybe that it comes off alot nicer than yours did, which, frankly, came off as quite mean-spirited, true, but mean-spirited. I don't get how you could say that, then and come down on her so harshly now. I applaud both of you, but if she made some sort of *oops* in her presentation I'd say she's in good company with you.

[isarma.livejournal.com]

Just stating formally, you go, girl. Speak your truth. I, personally, pride myself on honesty and that's one thing that differentiates an actual friendship, is that I'll tell them the unpleasant things. Friends are people who'll tell you when you're full of shit and love you anyway. I'm proud to call you friend. And some of the most important and life-changing epiphanies I've ever had about myself, my life and my relationships came as a result of something that was hard to hear, from someone who loved me enough to say the hard stuff. I wouldn't put it in LJ, that wouldn't be my choice, but it's not how I operate and you've always operated this way and, I believe, respect other's rights to do likewise in your direction, so I see no hypocrisy or lack of rational thought or meanness here.

simply_sakka, she is being your friend, in possibly the best way. A friend is not someone who bites their tongue or only says what you want to hear. Perhaps she's not right on the mark, though just based on my limited knowledge, I believe she makes some very concise points, but what kind of friend would she be if she hid her great worry from either of you? That would be one empty friendship.

[simplysakka.livejournal.com]

I don't fault her for telling us what she thinks. Not in the least. I've always encouraged open conversation among us all. But to post highly private (in my opinion, and when it comes to things about me, my opinion should weigh the heaviest) information in a public post that *anyone* can get access to is a breach of boundaries. And I am reminded that I spent eight hours closing my journal and making all of my public posts friends-only because of one person, and that person is now privy to all of this information and is attacking us ONCE AGAIN.

It is the not the disclosure of the information. Not in the least. It is the public venue. As logomancer, profundis, and elorie all stated one way or another, an e-mail or a private post made *just* to us would have sufficed. Instead, our issues have been made fodder for discussion for the entire world.

Do you not agree?

[isarma.livejournal.com]

As I said, it would not have been *my* choice, but I think K'La has operated consistently in that way. I never read your journal regularly, but, until recently, you posted very private, very personal details about yourself and others in you LJ, right? I'm just wondering where the line is. As I said, it's not what *I'd* do, but she's not the only one who chooses this method of airing her feelings. As I commented above, I don't really see how (EDIT: used the wrong LJ name. Have corrected it now.) logomancer has alot of room to talk here, as he's done very, very similarly in the past and I don't recall him ever saying he regretted that move. I'm not saying he should. I supported his decision same as I support K'La's now.

Whatever her rational for posting this publically, I believe everything happens for a reason. I believe everything serves some purpose. I don't know you well, so, I'm saying very clearly this is based on information from you, K'La and others, primarily LJ related. I'm not sure if these remarks, made in person, would've engendered the kind of life changes you are currently making. I think it would've much easily bounced off your radar. I'm not saying that was her motivation, I know no such thing. K'La is who she is and you are who you are and whether or not your friendship can continue is an issue the two of you have to figure out. I do not think, however, that her actions mean she's not your friend. I think you're assigning your own morals, ethics and boundaries to a seperate individual. While the logic of, "I would never do this because..." or "If I did this it would mean..." seems tempting (as I know firsthand) it's rarely fair or accurate.

As far as your only complaint being the venue, I just don't think that's the case. I think that is a complaint and a valid one, on your part, however, why would you spend so much time and energy commenting and debating if you had no quarrel with her points, in and of themselves? Just judging from your comments, you would have had a rather emotional reaction if this had all been presented privately, and in person and that's your right. I'm not judging it or taking that away. I just don't believe, based on your response, that your only quarrel is the presentation.

[simplysakka.livejournal.com]

I've re-read all of these posts and comments, and once again, I think elorie is presenting the best take on it overall. But yes, you are partially right here. I was angry about the venue being a public one; I know myself and I know for certain that I would not have reacted as I did had she either made it a filtered post to Richard and I only, or an e-mail. But upon examining everything, I also was angry because of the implied judgment that mine and Richard's marriage has something inherently "wrong" with it (believe me, I've seen many married couples who are a LOT worse off than he and I, and I am quite proud of that after seven years wed), and also because after re-reading her post many times, I see her being off-base on a great deal of it. She is presenting ONE viewpoint, HER viewpoint, and honestly, we truly don't spend enough time with her to justify her *making* these kinds of judgments on us. You show me one "perfect" marriage, and I assure you, there is something underneath the surface that probably needs "working on." And finally, I think the last thing to put the cherry on top of the cake of my anger regarding all of this was that I would never have done something like this myself. I don't know about other people, but I tend to react strongly and negatively toward something that is "done" to me that I know I would never do in turn. With someone else, eh, it probably wouldn't have phased me. I would have made some kind of mental judgment perhaps, like, "Well, jeez, that was WRONG" but probably never would have aired my feelings in public, unless, of course, it was done to a very close friend of mine. Since it was done TO me, and TO my husband, naturally, my anger and rage was much stronger.

So here it is, in a nutshell. WHY I got so bunged up over this. And apparently, my feelings, valid as they supposedly are, aren't going to change things, so I am left in he unfortunately state of realization that my friendship with bookofmirrors isn't as I believed it was. She may have made this post acting out of love and concern for us, and we noted that in the beginning. When other people who don't know us began making judgments, and the Bible-beater joined the fray, I felt that it was just too much. Additionally, I've done nothing "to" her to either warrant this kind of attack or justify the continuation of making us angry, hurt and frustrated. I've tried to act like a friend here, but apparently it does no good. But not taking our feelings into consideration, as strong as they are, and basically, "continuing" to "hurt" us is not the act of a friend. As a friend, I've tried to give her the benefit of the doubt. Put that in your pipe and smoke it, bulwerk.