BlogSpot Entry
Apr. 20th, 2002 10:45 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
bookofmirrorsSaturday, April 20, 2002
It's 4:00am as I write this. This is the second night in a row I've lain awake in bed, my thoughts tumbling around in my head so much I can't sleep. I keep re-hashing things in my head, and tonight, I've been rehearsing. Well, I have this blog for a reason, and it seems to me that if I get down on "paper" what I've rehearsed over and over in my head, I won't worry so much that I'll forget something, and I'll have something concrete that I can refer to, and edit if necessary.
Let me explain the situation, briefly. There is a woman in the pagan community that I'm a part of, named Otter. Currently, WebWeavers Community is comprised of two independent covens: SafeHarbor (of which I am a member) and SpiderClan (of which Otter is High Priestess). Quite a while ago, shortly after Yule, Otter told my husband that I was passive-aggressive, and made some further minor comment about it. This was in response to a post I made the the WWC egroup regarding a conflict with my best friend's birthday party and an upcoming WWC potluck, which stated that I was not going to be at the potluck, since I was going to the dinner for Rob, and that I was going to try to talk Glenn into coming with me. Apparently, she found this post disturbing, and felt the need to point this out to Glenn. Glenn, of course, told me about what she said, and I was upset that she felt that way, and had said nothing to me about it. I had seriously considered taking her aside then, and asking her why she hadn't directed her comment to me, but ended up deciding against it, willing to chalk it up to human nature, a momentary lapse, whatever. Since then, I have, off and on, gotten "disapproval" vibes from her. These confused me, because, for the most part, she treated me just as before, which was friendly, if perhaps a bit less warm than she had been. Again, she never approached me to express that she had any issue with me, so, as I so often (and unfortunately) do, I disregarded my feelings, and gave her the benefit of the doubt that, if she really had a problem with me, she would certainly approach me about it.
Very recently, another incident arose. My husband is getting his first degree initiation for the coven today. As I am not initiated, I am not allowed to attend the ritual. Mysteries, and all that. However, Otter asked Glenn a few days ago what his favorite desserts were, so that she could prepare them for him, for the feast after the ritual. Well, Glenn mentioned it to me, as he mentions everything to me. (He's a very good husband.) Up to that point, neither of us had considered that there would be an "afterwards", and I wondered if that was closed off to me, as well. Initiations being a bit hush-hush (or so I perceive), I really hadn't asked any questions about it, and all I knew was that I couldn't come. So, I asked Otter online that day if I was allowed to come to afterwards. I immediately felt this wave of disapproval coming from her. (Don't laugh, I find the computer an excellent energy channel, and am quite good at reading someone's energy via that medium.) She asked if I had asked Scott and Christa about this, since they were the High Priest and High Priestess of SafeHarbor, and it was their ritual. I explained to her that I thought she and Dan (her husband, and SpiderClan's High Priest) were running the ritual. They usually do run our rituals, since they are third degree, and Scott and Christa are only first. Granted, had I thought about it, I should have come to the conclusion that Glenn's initiation would, of course, be run by his own coven. However, based on the conversation I had with Glenn about afterwards, I would have still come to the conclusion that Otter was running the afterwards, and would have still thought it appropriate to ask her. At any rate, I told her I would ask Scott, in that case, since he was online at the time (and also happened to be across the room from me, at work). I asked Scott, who said it was an unusual request. He made the incorrect (albeit logical) assumption that, if I was asking if I was ALLOWED, I must want to be there. Truly, though, I hadn't gotten that far in my line of thinking. I wanted to establish the rules first, and then make a decision based on those rules. I wasn't really thinking ahead about whether or not it would be in Glenn's or my best interests for me to go, since I didn't even know if it was OK. Seemed a waste of energy. At any rate, I realized when Scott used the words unusual "request", that he had misunderstood me, and I kept trying to clarify the question, so he understood what I was asking, and more importantly, what I wasn't asking. This really didn't work; the impression Scott got was that I asked the same question three times; most likely he felt that this was indicative of some sort of desparation on my part. Again, not an illogical conclusion to come to, since when I first found out I couldn't share in such an important step of Glenn's life, I was very upset (sad, not angry). I had since come to terms with it, but Scott didn't know that. Hell, I don't think I knew it until this whole incident forced me to realize it. At any rate, the misunderstanding with Scott is neither here nor there, since I've already sat down and discussed it with him, and we both finally understand where the other was coming from.
So, back to Otter. What I didn't know at the time, was that, pretty much immediately (from what I'm told) after I IMed her asking if I was allowed to come, she IMed Scott. I don't know the exact nature of the IM, but apparently, it was something to the effect of expressing displeasure that I had asked her. Perhaps she springboarded that into some sweeping observation of my lack of personal growth/maturity, but I really don't know that.
The next morning, my husband brings me a chatlog that he had printed out. A little background on his relationship with Otter. Otter has told him that she felt she knew him when she first met him, and believes they shared a past life in some capacity. She also said that the first time she hugged (or was it kissed?) him in front of me, she felt a twinge, as if she shouldn't do that in front of me, because it would upset me. She also attributes this feeling to a past life situation. Personally, I have no problem with Otter hugging, kissing, or doing whatever she likes to Glenn, as long as he approves, and as long as our coven's "condom compact" rule stays in effect. Of course, Glenn and I would discuss any such interaction, and we're not playing with anyone until we get our own sexual issues worked out in therapy. We've both discussed this, and agreed on this. In fact, based on conversations between himself and Otter than Glenn has related to me in the past, I was the one who pointed out the glaringly obvious attraction that Otter had for my sometimes thick-headed husband. :) At any rate, Otter told Glenn in this chatlog that she thought I was manipulative, that she thought I had a history of sexual abuse (I don't) such that I feel the need to control people, especially men, and that she thought I was getting my shit together, but the more she sees, the less she thinks that. She also said that she thought I saw Glenn as a passive person who avoids conflict, and thought that I saw him as an easy target for my control. (All of the above is my paraphrasing, mostly 'cause I'm too lazy to get up and find the chatlog to copy it - ditto for the allegedly passive-aggressive message to the WWC egroup.) Again, she has talked to both Scott and Glenn (and perhaps others, although I can't confirm this) about my failings, but has yet to approach me about it. Since she was talking to me online at the time, she certainly had opportunity to do so, and the fact that she spoke online to Scott about it, would indicate that the reason she didn't do so did not stem from her desire to do so in a different medium. Nor did she express to me any desire to meet in a different setting. In this same chatlog, she also flirts with Glenn, and he with her. Again, I don't care about this; my only concern is the perception I have that saying someone's wife is all these negative things in one breath, and saying they'd like to get to know you better, and asking if they were polyamorous (she and Dan are, and she knows we know this) all in the same conversation... well, one might question the motives for making those statements together.
It is on this evening that SafeHarbor holds its bi-weekly meetings. We get together, everyone gives a sort of state-of-the-union on themselves, and we have a discussion of some sort, and if the time is right, or the need is there, we hold ritual. Unfortunately, I have recently started working afternoons at my job, and the schedule of SafeHarbor was unable to be changed to acommodate this, so I haven't been able to attend these meetings. Glenn told me about it when he got home. Apparently, several things I was unaware of (and so was he) have been happening. It was due to Glenn's recount of the discussion at SafeHarbor that I found out that Otter had IMed Scott when she was talking to me. I also found out that she found it inappropriate that Glenn and I asked her and Dan to perform our handfasting (there was no conflict at that time, and regardless of how I now feel towards her personally, I did not have that issue then, nor does Glenn, and we both respect the hell out of them as HP/S). Apparently, they felt we should have asked Scott and Christa first. (The only reason we didn't is because Scott and Christa aren't clergy, and I wanted this handfasting to be equally legally binding as the mundane wedding we're having for the benefit of our parents.) I got the blame for this, apparently, because I was the one who actually said the words, even though Glenn was by my side at the time. Again, no one told either of us that this was a problem, although apparently, she told Scott and Christa about it.
These are just the instances I now KNOW about. There may or may not be other instances where Otter has avoided speaking to me directly, but voiced her disapproval of me/my actions to those I love.
As a result of all this, I feel angry that she would go behind my back; less likely to trust her, since I feel she has been putting on a falsely friendly face to me when she apparently doesn't feel that way towards me; disrespected, since she didn't come to me first; insulted, because it seems like a slap in the face for her to go to anyone else other than me, as if she didn't think I was worthy of the truth, or didn't think I was mature enough to handle it; hurt, because in each instance, given what I think are neutral stimuli (the questions, etc.), she immediately jumped to what seemed to be the worst possible conclusion; worse yet, she never once asked me to clarify what I said in order to get a more accurate picture before she jumped to that conclusion. I would have at least preferred something along the lines of, "You asked if you were allowed to the feast after Glenn's initiation. What I heard was that you wanted to go to the feast after Glenn's initiation, and that you were disrespecting Scott and Christa, who are running the ritual, by asking me instead of them. Is that what you meant?" Again, there were no disapproving words to go along with the wave of negative emotion I felt from her at the time; just a polite statement that she wasn't running the ritual, so I should ask the people who were.
Furthermore, her saying negative things about me at the same time she's all but propositioning my husband leads me to question her motivation. Again, when Glenn and I decide to be polyamorous again, I have no problem with him fucking Otter if that's what he wants to do. But I would ask her to look inside herself to see what made her say things in the manner she said them. She doesn't have to answer to me for that, but I do think she should be aware of the perceptions that could be drawn from it, and see if any of those ring true with her heart. She should also look into the past life issues that she believes we have. They apparently aren't an issue for me this time around, since I don't have any issue with her in that vein.
My method of communication with people is to go straight to the source. I'll usually put it off, and hemhaw, and give them a million chances, even though I know my perceptions of things are generally accurate (the disapproving energy I've felt from Otter for quite some time). But, once it becomes painfully obvious that discussion is needed, I'll go to the person, and request a meeting. This is what I've been taught in psychology (I have a bachelor's degree in psychology, with mental health worker certification, so I've had some fairly extensive study in this area), in work protocols, and in just about every pop culture book on resolving conflict. (Glenn tells me that this is also the method used in Robert's Rules of Order, which I've never studied, at least under that name.) You go directly to the person, and THEN, if there are no results, or unfavorable ones, you ask someone else to step in. Or you just drop it, if that works for you. I am, in fact, rather smug about being this way. This method of conflict resolution speaks to my heart, and it's backed up by textbooks. What could be better?
However, in the SafeHarbor meeting, Glenn (and therefore, I) learned that Otter has a completely different viewpoint on communication. She is strict Gardnerian Wiccan, and believes in hierarchy. In her mind, she did the perfectly appropriate thing by going to my HP/S with her issues, rather than me. That's what she was taught, and, according to Scott, she's been "burned bad" by doing it my way in the past. (If that's the case, and Scott and Christa knew how she worked, whereas I didn't, it then fell upon them to take these issues up with me, which they didn't, but I'm focusing on Otter for now.) OK, now that I know that, it helps me understand what she did a bit better. However, the emotional damage has already been done, and will continue to be done, unless we sit down together and hash this out. Christa offered at SafeHarbor to be a mediator (I believe, along with Gale, our WWC Elder) in a meeting between Otter and I. Normally, I would turn that down, given my own method of communication. However, knowing now how Otter communicates, and thinking that Christa volunteered exactly for that reason, I am going to take Christa up on this offer. I left a message on her machine.
I'd like to do this as soon as possible, because I keep lying in bed, rehearsing the conversation over and over again in my head, and I'm not getting any sleep. I think I'm partially working it out for myself, and partially just trying to memorize it, so I don't forget something when the time comes. Which is where today's entry comes in. I think I've not only given the reader enough background to understand the story without getting confused, and I've also expressed my own thoughts and feelings on the situation, so that I can come back and look at them prior to the meeting without having to worry as much about forgetting something.
So, having done that, oh gentle reader, I'm going back to bed.
Pleasant Dreams.
It's 4:00am as I write this. This is the second night in a row I've lain awake in bed, my thoughts tumbling around in my head so much I can't sleep. I keep re-hashing things in my head, and tonight, I've been rehearsing. Well, I have this blog for a reason, and it seems to me that if I get down on "paper" what I've rehearsed over and over in my head, I won't worry so much that I'll forget something, and I'll have something concrete that I can refer to, and edit if necessary.
Let me explain the situation, briefly. There is a woman in the pagan community that I'm a part of, named Otter. Currently, WebWeavers Community is comprised of two independent covens: SafeHarbor (of which I am a member) and SpiderClan (of which Otter is High Priestess). Quite a while ago, shortly after Yule, Otter told my husband that I was passive-aggressive, and made some further minor comment about it. This was in response to a post I made the the WWC egroup regarding a conflict with my best friend's birthday party and an upcoming WWC potluck, which stated that I was not going to be at the potluck, since I was going to the dinner for Rob, and that I was going to try to talk Glenn into coming with me. Apparently, she found this post disturbing, and felt the need to point this out to Glenn. Glenn, of course, told me about what she said, and I was upset that she felt that way, and had said nothing to me about it. I had seriously considered taking her aside then, and asking her why she hadn't directed her comment to me, but ended up deciding against it, willing to chalk it up to human nature, a momentary lapse, whatever. Since then, I have, off and on, gotten "disapproval" vibes from her. These confused me, because, for the most part, she treated me just as before, which was friendly, if perhaps a bit less warm than she had been. Again, she never approached me to express that she had any issue with me, so, as I so often (and unfortunately) do, I disregarded my feelings, and gave her the benefit of the doubt that, if she really had a problem with me, she would certainly approach me about it.
Very recently, another incident arose. My husband is getting his first degree initiation for the coven today. As I am not initiated, I am not allowed to attend the ritual. Mysteries, and all that. However, Otter asked Glenn a few days ago what his favorite desserts were, so that she could prepare them for him, for the feast after the ritual. Well, Glenn mentioned it to me, as he mentions everything to me. (He's a very good husband.) Up to that point, neither of us had considered that there would be an "afterwards", and I wondered if that was closed off to me, as well. Initiations being a bit hush-hush (or so I perceive), I really hadn't asked any questions about it, and all I knew was that I couldn't come. So, I asked Otter online that day if I was allowed to come to afterwards. I immediately felt this wave of disapproval coming from her. (Don't laugh, I find the computer an excellent energy channel, and am quite good at reading someone's energy via that medium.) She asked if I had asked Scott and Christa about this, since they were the High Priest and High Priestess of SafeHarbor, and it was their ritual. I explained to her that I thought she and Dan (her husband, and SpiderClan's High Priest) were running the ritual. They usually do run our rituals, since they are third degree, and Scott and Christa are only first. Granted, had I thought about it, I should have come to the conclusion that Glenn's initiation would, of course, be run by his own coven. However, based on the conversation I had with Glenn about afterwards, I would have still come to the conclusion that Otter was running the afterwards, and would have still thought it appropriate to ask her. At any rate, I told her I would ask Scott, in that case, since he was online at the time (and also happened to be across the room from me, at work). I asked Scott, who said it was an unusual request. He made the incorrect (albeit logical) assumption that, if I was asking if I was ALLOWED, I must want to be there. Truly, though, I hadn't gotten that far in my line of thinking. I wanted to establish the rules first, and then make a decision based on those rules. I wasn't really thinking ahead about whether or not it would be in Glenn's or my best interests for me to go, since I didn't even know if it was OK. Seemed a waste of energy. At any rate, I realized when Scott used the words unusual "request", that he had misunderstood me, and I kept trying to clarify the question, so he understood what I was asking, and more importantly, what I wasn't asking. This really didn't work; the impression Scott got was that I asked the same question three times; most likely he felt that this was indicative of some sort of desparation on my part. Again, not an illogical conclusion to come to, since when I first found out I couldn't share in such an important step of Glenn's life, I was very upset (sad, not angry). I had since come to terms with it, but Scott didn't know that. Hell, I don't think I knew it until this whole incident forced me to realize it. At any rate, the misunderstanding with Scott is neither here nor there, since I've already sat down and discussed it with him, and we both finally understand where the other was coming from.
So, back to Otter. What I didn't know at the time, was that, pretty much immediately (from what I'm told) after I IMed her asking if I was allowed to come, she IMed Scott. I don't know the exact nature of the IM, but apparently, it was something to the effect of expressing displeasure that I had asked her. Perhaps she springboarded that into some sweeping observation of my lack of personal growth/maturity, but I really don't know that.
The next morning, my husband brings me a chatlog that he had printed out. A little background on his relationship with Otter. Otter has told him that she felt she knew him when she first met him, and believes they shared a past life in some capacity. She also said that the first time she hugged (or was it kissed?) him in front of me, she felt a twinge, as if she shouldn't do that in front of me, because it would upset me. She also attributes this feeling to a past life situation. Personally, I have no problem with Otter hugging, kissing, or doing whatever she likes to Glenn, as long as he approves, and as long as our coven's "condom compact" rule stays in effect. Of course, Glenn and I would discuss any such interaction, and we're not playing with anyone until we get our own sexual issues worked out in therapy. We've both discussed this, and agreed on this. In fact, based on conversations between himself and Otter than Glenn has related to me in the past, I was the one who pointed out the glaringly obvious attraction that Otter had for my sometimes thick-headed husband. :) At any rate, Otter told Glenn in this chatlog that she thought I was manipulative, that she thought I had a history of sexual abuse (I don't) such that I feel the need to control people, especially men, and that she thought I was getting my shit together, but the more she sees, the less she thinks that. She also said that she thought I saw Glenn as a passive person who avoids conflict, and thought that I saw him as an easy target for my control. (All of the above is my paraphrasing, mostly 'cause I'm too lazy to get up and find the chatlog to copy it - ditto for the allegedly passive-aggressive message to the WWC egroup.) Again, she has talked to both Scott and Glenn (and perhaps others, although I can't confirm this) about my failings, but has yet to approach me about it. Since she was talking to me online at the time, she certainly had opportunity to do so, and the fact that she spoke online to Scott about it, would indicate that the reason she didn't do so did not stem from her desire to do so in a different medium. Nor did she express to me any desire to meet in a different setting. In this same chatlog, she also flirts with Glenn, and he with her. Again, I don't care about this; my only concern is the perception I have that saying someone's wife is all these negative things in one breath, and saying they'd like to get to know you better, and asking if they were polyamorous (she and Dan are, and she knows we know this) all in the same conversation... well, one might question the motives for making those statements together.
It is on this evening that SafeHarbor holds its bi-weekly meetings. We get together, everyone gives a sort of state-of-the-union on themselves, and we have a discussion of some sort, and if the time is right, or the need is there, we hold ritual. Unfortunately, I have recently started working afternoons at my job, and the schedule of SafeHarbor was unable to be changed to acommodate this, so I haven't been able to attend these meetings. Glenn told me about it when he got home. Apparently, several things I was unaware of (and so was he) have been happening. It was due to Glenn's recount of the discussion at SafeHarbor that I found out that Otter had IMed Scott when she was talking to me. I also found out that she found it inappropriate that Glenn and I asked her and Dan to perform our handfasting (there was no conflict at that time, and regardless of how I now feel towards her personally, I did not have that issue then, nor does Glenn, and we both respect the hell out of them as HP/S). Apparently, they felt we should have asked Scott and Christa first. (The only reason we didn't is because Scott and Christa aren't clergy, and I wanted this handfasting to be equally legally binding as the mundane wedding we're having for the benefit of our parents.) I got the blame for this, apparently, because I was the one who actually said the words, even though Glenn was by my side at the time. Again, no one told either of us that this was a problem, although apparently, she told Scott and Christa about it.
These are just the instances I now KNOW about. There may or may not be other instances where Otter has avoided speaking to me directly, but voiced her disapproval of me/my actions to those I love.
As a result of all this, I feel angry that she would go behind my back; less likely to trust her, since I feel she has been putting on a falsely friendly face to me when she apparently doesn't feel that way towards me; disrespected, since she didn't come to me first; insulted, because it seems like a slap in the face for her to go to anyone else other than me, as if she didn't think I was worthy of the truth, or didn't think I was mature enough to handle it; hurt, because in each instance, given what I think are neutral stimuli (the questions, etc.), she immediately jumped to what seemed to be the worst possible conclusion; worse yet, she never once asked me to clarify what I said in order to get a more accurate picture before she jumped to that conclusion. I would have at least preferred something along the lines of, "You asked if you were allowed to the feast after Glenn's initiation. What I heard was that you wanted to go to the feast after Glenn's initiation, and that you were disrespecting Scott and Christa, who are running the ritual, by asking me instead of them. Is that what you meant?" Again, there were no disapproving words to go along with the wave of negative emotion I felt from her at the time; just a polite statement that she wasn't running the ritual, so I should ask the people who were.
Furthermore, her saying negative things about me at the same time she's all but propositioning my husband leads me to question her motivation. Again, when Glenn and I decide to be polyamorous again, I have no problem with him fucking Otter if that's what he wants to do. But I would ask her to look inside herself to see what made her say things in the manner she said them. She doesn't have to answer to me for that, but I do think she should be aware of the perceptions that could be drawn from it, and see if any of those ring true with her heart. She should also look into the past life issues that she believes we have. They apparently aren't an issue for me this time around, since I don't have any issue with her in that vein.
My method of communication with people is to go straight to the source. I'll usually put it off, and hemhaw, and give them a million chances, even though I know my perceptions of things are generally accurate (the disapproving energy I've felt from Otter for quite some time). But, once it becomes painfully obvious that discussion is needed, I'll go to the person, and request a meeting. This is what I've been taught in psychology (I have a bachelor's degree in psychology, with mental health worker certification, so I've had some fairly extensive study in this area), in work protocols, and in just about every pop culture book on resolving conflict. (Glenn tells me that this is also the method used in Robert's Rules of Order, which I've never studied, at least under that name.) You go directly to the person, and THEN, if there are no results, or unfavorable ones, you ask someone else to step in. Or you just drop it, if that works for you. I am, in fact, rather smug about being this way. This method of conflict resolution speaks to my heart, and it's backed up by textbooks. What could be better?
However, in the SafeHarbor meeting, Glenn (and therefore, I) learned that Otter has a completely different viewpoint on communication. She is strict Gardnerian Wiccan, and believes in hierarchy. In her mind, she did the perfectly appropriate thing by going to my HP/S with her issues, rather than me. That's what she was taught, and, according to Scott, she's been "burned bad" by doing it my way in the past. (If that's the case, and Scott and Christa knew how she worked, whereas I didn't, it then fell upon them to take these issues up with me, which they didn't, but I'm focusing on Otter for now.) OK, now that I know that, it helps me understand what she did a bit better. However, the emotional damage has already been done, and will continue to be done, unless we sit down together and hash this out. Christa offered at SafeHarbor to be a mediator (I believe, along with Gale, our WWC Elder) in a meeting between Otter and I. Normally, I would turn that down, given my own method of communication. However, knowing now how Otter communicates, and thinking that Christa volunteered exactly for that reason, I am going to take Christa up on this offer. I left a message on her machine.
I'd like to do this as soon as possible, because I keep lying in bed, rehearsing the conversation over and over again in my head, and I'm not getting any sleep. I think I'm partially working it out for myself, and partially just trying to memorize it, so I don't forget something when the time comes. Which is where today's entry comes in. I think I've not only given the reader enough background to understand the story without getting confused, and I've also expressed my own thoughts and feelings on the situation, so that I can come back and look at them prior to the meeting without having to worry as much about forgetting something.
So, having done that, oh gentle reader, I'm going back to bed.
Pleasant Dreams.
